glider/slider windows: try before you buy

[ccs>ikyr]

A cautionary tale and call for advice:

I'm doing a full tear out replacement with aluminum clad wood windows.

Some research on the internet turned up Marvin, Weathershield, Jeld-Wen, Hurd, Semco, Loewen, Peachtree, and Kolbe as making aluminum-clad wood gliders/sliders.

In the process of vetting about 10 installers in the DC area and hitting window showrooms, Home Depot, real lumber yards, I had never encountered an actual glider until today. What I heard is "the construction is very similar to this double hung I can show you", which was sometimes accompanied by the salesman turning the double-hung sideways and moving it back and forth, saying "see?"

Well, it's not the same, to state the obvious. To begin with, in a slider, gravity pushes the window against the track, but in a DH, gravity pulls it across the track! Furthermore, confirming by inspection that a company makes a good double-hung does *not* indicate they make a good glider.

For example, I thought the DH Weathershields I had seen were passable, but I finally tracked down a Weathershield glider today and what a piece of garbage it was! Standing directly in front of the window, I had difficulty getting it to slide open. First it was hard to budge and second once it budged it kept bucking -- catching on the leading edge and rising up on the trailing edge. Plus the cladding job was abysmal.

OTOH, I leapfrogged the local Marvin showroom, where they don't have a glider, to visit the one in Northern Virginia where they do have one, and it's as well-made as everything else by Marvin, for whom I do not work nor do I derive direct or indirect benefit from plugging them. Part of the reason for the smooth operation is the fiberglass strip inside the groove in the base of the window that runs along the track. What's more, I called Marvin HQ and a nice Minnesotan spent twenty minutes on the phone with me explaining the finer points of their construction, gave me his name and direct number and told me to call back anytime.

After calling dealers listed on their websites, I've concluded the rest of the clowns mentioned above don't bother making examples of their full line of products available in the DC area.

If anyone knows differently and can point me to a showroom, I'd be delighted to check them out. I'd love to discover I have options for a decent aluminum-clad wood slider other than Marvin, since Marvins are very dear, but I have to be able to hold the competitor in my hands. I won't drop $20K installing a product in my house sight unseen.

Cheers,

ccs>ikyr

[buffalobill]

is it possible they are not common to your climate due to condensation, freezing, or ocean salt air corrosion?

[ccs>ikyr]

Nope. Washington DC isn't known for excessive amounts of those things.

The more likely explanation is that the market for good gliders is small. My neighborhood is full of 50's houses that were built with all-metal aluminum gliders. Most of them have been replaced, and I don't know of a single example of a house that didn't use solid vinyl replacement windows. Among houses that use windows based on wood, the dominant choice around here is double hung. So companies that blow off the wood glider market are following a certain economic logic.

[RicodJour]

Why only aluminum clad? The Andersen vinyl clad glider is a very nice window. Very tight.

R

[ccs>ikyr]

Dealer's choice.

I don't doubt Andersen makes a decent product, but I'm skeptical of vinyl in general.

Over time, after a beating from wind and rain, I think aluminum will hold it's shape better than vinyl. There are examples all over my neighborhood of vinyl windows coming apart, not even five years after installation. Granted, they aren't Andersen.

I'm open to persuasion, though.

[m Ransley]

Why use sliders, they are poor by design as you see, tracks get ditry in a week. Casements are a proven design, with a positive air seal, they have less air infiltration due to the pulled tight design. Air infiltration is usualy overlooked in ratings but accounts for half of heat loss on old windows. Check ratings, learn the ratings, everything is rated independantly on good windows.

[butch burton]

One thing to think about is resale - which product is better for that. In my neck of the woods, AL doors and windows go on mostly lower end homes - exception being clad AL. A lot of higher end homes are using the better vinyl windows. Unfortunately there is a lot of vinyl junk out there. One of the better pure vinyl windows/sliding doors in Vinylcrest's top line. Beware they also make a lot of builder crap also. Kolbe is mostly builder crap.

I really question the durability of wood clad with either vinyl or aluminum. Most of it I have seen is not sealed on the unseen surfaces

- windows sweat - wood soaks it up and then you have mildew and rot. What is a person to do.

Oh I would specifically avoid any local vinyl/aluminum fabricator - they have all kinds of deals with local installers. Find your own installer - when you go through someone like HD - they take 40% of the installation up front leaving the installer scraping to make a living from what is left forcing him to cut corners to survive.

good luck

[RicodJour]

I can't comment on sliding windows in general, but I can tell you that no window I've ever installed pulls and seals tighter than the Andersen gliders. It's more energy efficient due to it's tightness and lower air infiltration - check the ratings.

R

[RicodJour]

A sure sign of intelligence.

I'm working on a project right now that has 25 year old Andersens. No problem getting replacement hardware, screens, whatever. That's a major benefit if you plan on staying in the house for years. The vinyl has the color throughout and is clad over wood. On some of the windows painters had slopped some paint on the vinyl, old caulking had to be removed to install new flashing, etc. With the vinyl I can be pretty heavy handed and just scrape the old paint and caulk off. I clean up the last remnants by scraping a razor blade along the vinyl. The end result is a clean, white window. Try doing that with aluminum and you'll have a clean mill finish aluminum window.

I don't think Andersen is the "best" window out there, but I think it has a good price point and the widespread use and long history are major benefits. Check out an Andersen glider in person, they're nothing like the casements or doublehungs. Much beefier.

R

[ccs>ikyr]

New developments this morning that may be of interest:

(1) In an effort to be more flexible and consider vinyl-clad (as RicodJour suggested), my wife called all around the area to HD and others listed as selling Andersen. No one we've contacted has an example to show us. One installer gave us an address of an install they did to go look at. It's in Baltimore (We're in DC, and no, it isn't all the same metro area.) That should give you an idea how common what we're looking for is.

Exasperated, she called Andersen HQ, and was forwarded to the Carlisle PA office, where they distribute for our region. They confirmed they don't sell many vinyl-clad wood gliders in our region. Well, we're thinking of dropping $20K on buying windows from you, and we'd like to see one first, can you arrange to get one to our contractor for inspection, she said. His response,

"No, Andersen doesn't have a program to do that."

Keep in mind, they're shipping millions of dollars worth of windows to the DC area every month. They can't squeeze an extra window on one of those trucks? Now, I don't think that bodes well for service in the future.

Compare that response to the response to my experience talking to Marvin in the original post for this thread....

(2) Turns out there is a lumber yard with Loewen gliders in the showroom in N VA that I'm headed out to look at on my lunch hour.

[ccs>ikyr]

Good tips. Thanks.

On the resale issue, I expect a decent aluminum clad would beat a vinyl replacement window. The clads typically go on high-end homes around here, as in "overlooks championship golf course". That's not the kind of house I have, by any stretch, so if anything, I'm putting in a window too rich for the neighborhood and won't get all the money back, I expect.

Interesting point about local fabricators, and I wouldn't let HD install a doorbell, let alone a window.

I've heard a couple stories about rot on aluminum clad, particularly with regard to Pella. That, in fact, is what I was talking to the Marvin guy in Minnesota about. My reasoning was the aluminum cladding will be subject to the same temperature gradient as the aluminum in my old solid aluminum windows. That is, cold air outside, warm air inside => condensation. And the condensation will be hidden inside the cladding where it will rot out the wood and I'll never see it! His response, which I am inclined to believe, absent a reason not to, is that the air on *both* sides of the cladding is cold, so there should be no condensation. The air pocket between the cladding and the wood window is not warm. Regardless, if there is any rot, the windows have a 20 year guarantee.

If anyone can poke a hole in that reasoning, I'm all ears.

[ccs>ikyr]

Thanks for the feedback, m R.

I can see how the track is vulnerable to dirt. OTOH, the windows I have now are gliders, and I've only seen a need to clean the tracks once in 3 years, so I don't think that's a deal-breaker.

We chose gliders because they suit the architecture of the house and there didn't seem to be a compelling reason not to (except for the difficulty getting a look at them, as documented here.) However, I will double check the ratings, on your advice. Like the Andersens, the Marvins seem to close nice and snug when the latches are flipped, so I don't see a lot of potential for leaking, right off.

[yourname]

I have 4ftx6ft vinyl gliders in my home, circa 1990, in the NE, no problems, no whistles no cleaning[or even washing, or is that TMI] and they open no problem. they were bought through a neighbor who sells them and siding, i bought one more for an addition, and I shoulda bought all of them there as they cost a fraction of the Andersons the architect spec'd. I 'think' the guy has a Marvin sign up, but there aren't any labels on the window that I have noticed

[m Ransley]

Ratings are what you go by, if im wrong ok but by the design of pulling a window into the frame as casements do my limited research of air infiltration ratings showed casements superior, in air infiltration. I know my casements are still tight after years, and my sliding glass doors, Anderson a bit loose now from constant opening. It is logical a sliding seal will loose efectivness faster than one pulled tight. One other rating of many of importance is CDF, condensing factor, my Pellas condense, my Andersons dont, I researched this to late as Pella at a Consumer Reports test article, is rated lower on Dual pane Low E argon than Anderson. For windows depending on where you live there are different types of E coatings, some optimise SHG for high heat areas some reduce SHG, solar heat gain. Windows have alot of science behind them to save energy. Hurd offers several types , good to look at what they offer to see what is location important, they have high SHG and lower SHG types. In Fla you want low SHG and VLT in Minnesota for example you would want high SHG + VLT. There is always something new out with glass to make utilities less of a burden, glass is not equal as salesmen tell you. Google there is alot to read.

[ccs>ikyr]

On the issue of durability, Consumer Reports, October 2000 rated windows on durability, among other things, where

durability "indicates how well the windows performed after two weeks of severe temperature fluctuations and intermittent spraying with water"

The only windows that were rated "excellent" were Marvin aluminum clad, Pozzi aluminum clad, and Andersen Millenium (which evidently is the Renewal line -- vinyl/wood composite)

Notes on almost all the other windows include "some parts warped or loosened in durability tests". This includes Pella and Caradco aluminum clad, Andersen and Weathershield vinyl clad, and all solid vinyl windows except Weathershield, Alside, and Certainteed.

[bbrase]

I'm a builder in Virginia and put Norco, a Jeld-Wen company, aluminum clad glider in my house, also have Norco casements. We install Anderson's, Marvin's what ever the buyer wants. The glider is a simple but effective window design, that requires low maintenance (track cleaning), but no moving parts to break (DH balances or Casement cranks). I chose Norco, because I felt it's built as well as the big boys, but is more affordable. Shelter System's in Manasas will sell you Anderson, Norco, Marvin what ever you want. Call Brian at (703)

369-1552.

[RicodJour]

I don't understand what that test equates to in the real world. Two weeks is hardly a test for something meant to last decades. Consumer Reports tests paints and deck stains for year(s) to see how they hold up, and yet they test windows for two weeks? A ridiculous amount of extrapolation points to a meaningless test.

What does severe temperature fluctuations mean exactly? I live in an area where 0 degrees and 100 degrees are not uncommon - they never happen in the same season, much less the same day.

What does intermittent spraying with water mean? Window manufacturers subject their windows to water tests with hurricane force winds.

I think Consumer Reports is a great publication - a great service. But unless you've edited out a lot of information in your synopsis, the results are not relevant as the test is just bizarre.

R

[ccs>ikyr]

Well, if two weeks was enough for some of the windows to warp or get loose and others didn't, then it appears we can learn something from the test.

[RicodJour]

Not necessarily. It's a false positive (or negative) if the test is flawed. Testing for something the system wasn't designed to handle isn't testing the system.

Suppose I took a garden hose and sprayed the water up under your shingles. The roof would leak. Does that say anything about the shingles? I don't think it does.

R

[ccs>ikyr]

A false positive is not the same thing as a flawed test. All test statistics have statistical properties and when you pick a threshhold to indicate positive, you are picking a probability you'll indicate "positive" when in fact the true state of the world is "negative" -- a false positive. OTOH, a "flawed test" simply doesn't provide information about the subject of interest, like your absurd garden hose example.

Consumer Reports is not going to provide us with any more detail than I gave on the test. Beyond that description, you either trust them or you don't, as you see fit. I tend to think there's actual information in their ratings. They have a lot to lose if they construct a flawed test. I don't recall seeing window companies objecting to the evaluations when I googled "consumer reports and windows". They do note in the article that window "makers participating in a program run by the Insulated Glass Certification Council subject insulated glass to tests that expose the glazing and its seals to heat, cold and water. Glazing that passes three test segments earns a "CBA" mark, etched in the corner of the glass." Sounds like that industry group evaluates glass and seals using a method similar to Consumer Reports. Sounds like you don't trust them. So be it. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Cheers.