What did that Honda cost? My ETQ brand 1200 watt unit
was $140, shipped (this about five years ago). Says
it runs some hours on a gallon, can't remember. Nine
hours or something.
(Amazon.com product link shortened)77616848&sr=8-1&keywords=etq+1200
OK, make that five and a half hours. On half load.
Mine didn't start except on ether. I bought some 91
octane pure gas, and it runs and starts much better.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
On 8/27/2013 11:05 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
I'd dare to guess that you get good clean power. And
I'd guess that when the neighbor is out of gas for his
big generator, you'll be purring along on your second
gallon of gas, with 8 more gal left in your gas cans.
Wait till he sends his kid over to borrow a cup of gas.
"No, boy, but you can come in and get warm for a few....
you look cold. How is school going?"
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
On 8/27/2013 2:58 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
That was another major consideration. I wanted an inverter-type gennie
because of all the computer-type stuff I have.
I don't know enough to make a decision, but it seems at least possible
that, with all the computer stuff on UPS', the clean waveform might be
moot... but, like I said, I don't know enough so I went with the
If outages were frequent and/or medical considerations mandated
continuous power and/or I found I had too much money laying around, I'd
have to think about having a nat gas hookup to something like the Honda
EM5000iS inverter generator of an EU6500....
Except for A/C, I'm at a loss as to why I'd ever need more than 4KW
continuous - probably more like 3KW. This is based on observation of
the readouts on my APC UTS-6H smart transfer switch while it is running
our house on a 2,000 watt generator.
Dunno what our central A/C takes, but it's got to be way out of
proportion to the rest of the load.
If A/C were a "must" I think I would have a couple of small window boxes
or freestanding units in storage for use under generator power: one for
the kitchen and one for the bedroom - and they would determine whether
to get a 5 or 6.5 KW generator.
On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
All generators that are used for the kind of use being discussed spin a coil, even the inverter types. It's the rest of the generator where
the differences lie. The conventional rely on the constant motor
speed for the frequency and part of the voltage regulation. Those
with an inverter take the generator output and in turn synthesize the
AC waveform. One big thing that does is decouple the engine speed.
Low output, the engine can run at much lower RPM, using less fuel
and making less noise.
On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:26:16 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
No, only the most expensive generators are inverter
type. Not the typical 6KW that you buy for $800 to $1200.
The inverter ones I've seen have been 3 to 4X the price
of the equivalent conventional types.
I wouldn't expect computer gear to be the most sensitive to
the generator type either. But on the other hand, when I'm
running on any generator, I generally only use the essentials. And
if I had a 21" TV or a 55" one, I'd use the 21 during the power
outage. A neighbor had a small ~2KW generator and his coffee maker
died while it was on it. But who knows why....
On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 8:40:35 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
The cost of electronics that continues to drop off a
cliff is where you can put ever increasing numbers of transistors on
a small piece of silicon, ie Moore's Law. This inverter stuff needs some of that to control it, but it also needs the much larger power electronics, that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You
can't put 6KW through a wee little chip.
Also economics of scale. They can sell a few hundred
million phones, but only a million or two generators.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
On 8/27/2013 8:50 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
inverter stuff needs some of that to control it,
but it also needs the much larger power electronics,
that hasn't shrunk, needs heat sinks, etc. You
On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:46:54 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
The prices of all electronic devices are not in a free fall.
The large price drops over time are typically
in either new technology
that is initially very expensive and then drops off as it
gets into high volume production, an example being LCD panels.
Or in the application of Moore's
Law, where you can pack more transistors onto a given size
piece of silicon. The last, most powerful force,
clearly doesn't apply to power semiconductors for obvious
reasons. And power electronics is a relatively mature
field. Sure there are some cost reductions still occurring all
but these components are still very expensive
compared to say a microcontroller capable of running
an auto dashboard display or an appliance. You can buy
one of those for less than a $1. The cost of power electronics
is many times that. Don't believe me, take a look at
what a 6KW inverter costs. Then explain how you could put
one of those, plus all the other extra stuff needed, like
electronic throttle control, onto a $700 or $1000
conventional 6KW generator.
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:09:44 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Here you are, the guy who thought all generators now used
inverters, now telling us how all semiconductor components
are in a free fall regardless of what they are used for.
That is just flat out wrong. It isn't getting cheaper, it's
getting more expensive. As you go down in feature size, the
cost of the fabs and the processing increases.. Everything from the filtration needed to maintain the clean room to the cost of the lithography eqpt. A new state of the art fab can
cost $5bil. In the 90s, it was $1bil. What makes the cost of
the component go down and/or
the functionality/computing power, etc go up, is that as
the feature size decreases, we can pack way more
transistors on the same size piece of silicon, or alternatively
put the same number of transistors on a smaller piece of
silicon. So it costs more to process a wafer using 22nm
process, but you get a CPU with 2x the transistors. And wafer size has
grown over the years too, so you can get more die per wafer.
That is of huge benefit if your building microprocessors, microcontrollers,
memory, etc. where you need to pack millions of transistors
onto a single die. But the big benefit of reducing the
feature size doesn't apply to power semiconductors,
like an SCR that has to handle
6KW of power. You can't reduce it in size like you can
a memory chip or CPU. If it worked that way, a 6KW inverter would
cost $10 today, It doesn't. But apparently you think it does.
Or how about one of the simplest examples of power electronics,
the light dimmer? There is a market with worldwide competition
and huge volume. A basic dimmer today is $15. That's about what
it cost in the 80s. .It wasn't $1500, or $150. Allowing for inflation, yeah, it's come down. The design and components used
today are the same. But it's not following Moore's Law, because an SCR can't.
The major cost decline for those components was seen long ago and
they are not in a "free fall".
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 16:49:44 -0700 (PDT), " email@example.com"
You really like to lie, Trader. I said semiconductors in general are
in freefall, not just highly integrated semiconductors. Not all
components are. Some a *highly* specialized so are at a premium. Each
class of semiconductors is certainly dropping in price constantly.
You're an idiot, Trader. I've been in the business for 40 years.
*EVERYTHING* is cheaper.
<More irrelevant shit snipped.>
You may continue with your lies, now.
On 8/29/2013 7:03 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
**********Snip The Argument**********
Things actually kind of flip/flop. I worked in and owned a couple of
radio/TV shops (remember them?) and a funny thing happened with TV's and
the introduction of new technologies. I recall a horizontal output tube
costing $5.00 and a horizontal output transistor costing $25.00 then a
period of time passed and prices flipped. It's been many years since I
tried to purchase any vacuum tubes but I'll bet they're quite expensive
these days. I remember the TV sets that weighed a ton because of the big
power transformer power supplies then a design change had the solid
state horizontal output section becoming the switching power supply for
all the electronics in the set. I can't forget the hybrids with a solid
state chassis except for the horizontal output tube. It finally got to
where the only vacuum tube was the CRT, now that's gone. I used to get
rebuilt 25" replacement picture tubes for repairing TV's all the time.
In the late 1970's I attended a seminar put on by RCA for the local
electronic repair shops where RCA demonstrated the new technology in
their TV sets. It was an all solid state chassis and the fellow from RCA
blew our minds when he turned the line voltage down to 80vac and the set
still had a clear picture which shrank in a bit on the sides. It
was a demonstration of the low voltage tolerance and power regulation of
their new TV sets. Most electronic circuit boards still had discrete
components including IC chips that were soldered through holes in the
boards making replacement of parts quite easy then those darned surface
mount circuit boards showed up making things harder to repair but less
expensive and often more reliable. I remember being able to repair PC
motherboards which had through the hole components that were easy to
replace. Darn, there aren't that many radio/TV repair shops left today.
There seems to be a cell phone shop on every corner now but most of the
consumer electronic devices are pretty much disposable today. I still
don't have my flying car dammit! O_o
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