Generating power at night

Generating power at night
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On Sun, 21 May 2017 21:38:09 -0400, Seymore4Head
I was thinking that if you have excess power in the daytime you could use the electricity to lift a weight that could drive a flywheel at night.
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On 5/21/2017 9:39 PM, Seymore4Head wrote:

calculated loss? How is it better than battery storage?
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On 5/21/2017 6:57 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Isn't that the way pumped water storage works? Loss is irrelevant if you have excess daytime energy and insufficient nighttime energy...and a big hill and lotsa water...and massive load.
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On 5/21/2017 10:20 PM, mike wrote:

It is only irrelevant if the excess daytime generation exceeds the night consumption. If your generation excess equals 100% of the night time use but you use 50% of that to power the weight lift, you run out of power. Efficiency is a factor. If you make enough to lift the weight and carry 100% of the night load, then no, not a factor.
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On 05/21/2017 09:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

http://www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2016/12/02/northfield-mountain-hydroelectric-station
The company I worked for installed the Trabon lubrication system before the system went operational and I tagged along with the crew one day on the excuse that I was going to check the controllers. It was impressive if nothing else. It was also a little eerie to know the lake was on top of you with only the penstocks keeping you dry.
I was sort of jealous. They had workstations scattered throughout with every Rigid tool know to man. That was over 40 years ago and I imagine the shine has worn off a bit.
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On 5/21/2017 8:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

What's the efficiency of pumped water? What's the (end to end) efficiency of electrochemical battery storage? Depreciation/maintenance? Environmental impact?
The U.S. Department of Energy has big plans for battery systems like this. Pumped hydro is the most cost-effective way to store electricity. Ninety-nine percent of the bulk electric storage in the world is pumped hydro, and by 2050 the department wants to nearly double the amount now produced: enough to serve nearly 25 million homes.
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The only efficiencies that come into play are the frictional losses and motor efficiency of the winch, and the frictional losses in the flywheel mechanism. all the rest of the energy expended lifting the weight is recouped as the weight falls.
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On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 11:26:29 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

There's more to efficiency than that. What about the losses going from electric energy to mechanical in the motor/generator and then again when the process is reversed? That's significant. Losses in wiring, not so significant if it's a small home size system, but if it's over any distance, then it is.
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On 5/22/2017 12:01 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Motor efficiency has improved and NEMA Premium can be in the 95% range. I don't know what the total losses in the system would be, but it is in the "no free lunch" category. You need enough generation to cover it adding to the cost of equipment.
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For large-scale public power supply, the efficiency that really matters is economic: would it cost less to build, operate, and maintain some energy storage system than to use gas turbines to take up the slack when solar and wind generation drop off?
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On 5/22/2017 12:39 PM, Neill Massello wrote:

The turbines already exist so no additional capital cost and night time use drops as industry goes off line.
For homeowners though, battery systems are getting better and cheaper.
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On 5/22/2017 10:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The turbines have to grow to continue to meet growth in peak usage. The fixed costs of a turbine continue even when it's turned off. "Sorry Charlie, load is light tonight, you get to go home early without pay. Maybe we'll need you tomorrow, or maybe not, stay by the phone... if you can still afford to pay the phone bill." I'd expect that the cost fuel is lower if you contract for a fixed amount. Short term adjustments are gonna cost you. This can only get worse as more unreliable power is MANDATED, like solar and wind. If you are gonna legislate unreliable power, somebody has to fund research/development for storage.

Yep, as soon as you can get complete systems that can supply ALL your needs at a competitive cost/KWH (including debt retirement and depreciation) without subsidies or requiring the grid to back you up or swallow your excess, the market will explode.
When do you think that will be?
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mike wrote:

compressed air is being used some places.
i thought it would be interesting if you could split water using the extra electricity and store the O2 and H under inverted glass bells submerged in water. then the gases could be used to run a fuel cell generator (either 24/7 or just at night) and the water could drip back into the containers to be split again (completely closed system).
songbird
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On 5/23/2017 5:33 AM, songbird wrote:

Seems like a lot of loss due to heating on compression and cooling during release. Would be interesting to see the numbers.

Can't supply a link, but there was a thread a while back about a guy who did something similar. Only he just stored the Brown's gas and burned it for light and heat. Seems like a very dangerous thing to do. Don't remember how the efficiency compared to battery storage. Might be attractive in the post apocalyptic world where replacement batteries aren't available. As I recall, the efficiency of electrolysis at low temperatures is rather low.
Even though it's safer to store the gasses separately, I'd be very nervous if my neighbor decided to embark on such a project. Life is already too short.

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Dark energy !
Greg
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