55? Good grief! The frost line hereabouts is nearly 4 feet deep. No
nobody talks about geothermal heat pumps around here. You'd have to
halfway to China to find anything like stable 55. And in my 13 feet
clay, that's no picnic, even for a trencher.
They also do drilled vertical loop configurations which work just about
Trust me, your clay would be a picnic for some of the trenchers that are
available. Vermeer makes one that will cut something like 12" wide x 10'
deep trenches through solid granite. Not something you'll get at your
local rental yard, but they are becoming more common, particularly in
areas of the northeast that have lots of solid shallow rock.
Considering that it's a long way down to solid anything around here,
I doubt there's much call for or availability of that kind of
Well, I suppose geothermal is fine for those who are interested. I
amazed about the stable 55 degrees recommendation. I'll stick to
gas heat, hot water, and clothes drying. My electric bill is the same
because what I spend on air-conditioning in the summer is matched
by what I spend heating the hot tub (outdoors, albeit well insulated)
We went through the process of costing out a geothermal. They
usually size it such that there will be a couple of days per year
where the geothermal _alone_ won't quite cut it, and put
supplementary heat in for those days. Also, it keeps you from
freezing up if something goes wrong with the HP.
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
Aye, there's the rub.
Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil.
While digging just 48 inches, the code required footing depth, I've
had to have 6 foot diameter boulders pulled out on a regular basis.
The old joke about farming in New England was that farmers mainly grew
A public school near me thought they'd install a ground source heat
pump to replace their oil fired boilers. They eventually gave up on
the idea when they discovered that the installation costs were
something like 5 times the cost of a conventional boiler replacement
and a payback time of 15 to 20 years.
They'd be better off simply putting the money in the bank.
Air to Air heat pumps around here are pretty much useless, at least in
terms of cost savings. As my building inspector said bluntly "they
aren't worth a damn in New England".
The two electric utility companies that serve most of CT have raised
their rates 25 to 40% in just the last 12 months. Thus any alternative
is now much better than electric heating or hot water making.
CT is where I'm originally from and I've done plenty of trenching there
myself. You just have to bring in the correct equipment to do the job.
With the trenched vertical coil installation you don't need a wide
trench so you can bring in one of the Vermeer monsters for a day and
have your deep trench in no time since they have machines that will
trench through granite if needed. Not a cheap machine, but when you only
need it for a day...
A school i.e. commercial building vs. residence isn't a real good
Exactly, which is why geothermal heat pumps are necessary there and most
other places for the much greater efficiency due to the much more stable
The best alternative is a lot more insulation. Also, I thought electric
generation / delivery had been unbundled in CT like most other areas, so
you have multiple supplier choices.
Yes, rates have been unbundled to no good effect.
Remember what happened in California?
The only ones that have seen any benefit have been large commercial
users that have a better bargaining position.
Residential users have been able to access second tier suppliers who
offer a 5% discount on generation rates, but nothing off on
Deregulation has been a failure around here....
Even the legislators are now complaining that they were sold a bill of
Electric deregulation only works if there is an ample competitive
supply.There isn't. Generating and distribution capacities are tight
in most parts of the country.
California didn't actually deregulate, they tried to make the suppliers
eat varying wholesale prices while capping the retail price. It was a
typical CA scam and they ended up paying the price for it. No comparison
to states that actually did unbundle / deregulate.
It seems to be working fine here in TX, where I have plenty of supplier
I wouldn't expect anything off distribution rates since those costs are
pretty fixed and indeed need to increase most likely to fund the long
overdue overhaul of the grid. The generation costs are the variable ones
with different generation sources, fuel costs, etc.
Probably needs to be reviewed and compared with states where it's worked
ok to see what's different and what needs to change.
That's what happens when the only listen to the lobbyists and don't
actually do their job and research a bit.
I've got quite a few suppliers available to me here in TX with varying
rates. No dramatic differences in rates, but wouldn't expect anything
Another negative and abusive post from kj the dancing monkey boi.
What part of: "as long as the gas prices don't overtake electric" do you
not understand? Clearly the poster understands utility pricing and the
thermodynamic cost of generating electricity in the majority of the
country. Clearly you don't understand much of anything.
Yes abusive. You clearly don't give any credit to the poster's response
even though it is well stated. That is abuse. Until you accept the fact
that other folks have more knowledge than you all your posts will move
into the abusive category as you attack them for having more knowledge.
Sorry dancing monkey boi but that is just the way it is. Dance, boi dance.
The only thing you need to understand is that there's people working towards
a cure for stupidity.
When it becomes available, I'll let you know.
Until then, please stay away from your mother's computer!
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