On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 2:41:32 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
so I am not going to
So, how lucky do you feel? Those eventually type things have a
way of taking a long time or never happening and meanwhile the chimney
is slowly being damaged. What's a new chimney cost compared to a liner?
Here is my thinking:
The original chimney lasted over 100 years.
(and I had it replaced as a precaution as it was only mildly deteriorated)
The one now in place is about 20 years old and still like new.
Within the next five years or so I'll be due for a new water
heater...which will be a non-chimney type.
Next project will be a new roof and at that time the chimney will be
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 10:02:30 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Given that plan and timeline my first thought is you're probably OK,
because it's more of a long term thing. But then who knows.....
Ironically, I have had a chimney "sweating" problem for many years in
the winter but I finally got it solved this year...so I am not too
concerned about running the water heater alone.
If there is a problem however, I'll just move my projected time frame
for water heater replacement up a few years.
A vent-free water heater would only cost me a few dollars more than
having a chimney liner put in...and my roof is too steep for me to
consider doing it myself. Never went up there even when I was younger.
I've heard that about the chimney. it should
be possible to pull a chimney liner, and that
will work. I've done a bunch of those when I
Christopher A. Young
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Unless you are somewhere it is extremely cold the furnace did not run
all year long but the water heater did. Any problems during the time
the months when the furnace was not running? Don't think it will be a
problem unless bricks missing from flue.
That was my thinking too...the furnace does not run in the summer and of
course even in the winter, the furnace and water heater would rarely be
running at the same time. The chimney was replaced maybe 20 years ago
and is still like new. The original had been running without a liner
for 100 years when I had it replaced and it was still intact.
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 5:34:47 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Again, the problem here is that before you had a big, honking
furnace going up a big honking chimney. When it's cold outside,
the furnace ran, keeping the chimney warm. That prevented the
gases from the furnace and the WH from condensing inside the
chimney. Now you'll have a big honking chimney and just a WH.
The WH alone can't keep the big chimney warm.
The WH gasses will cool and condense and the condensate is acidic.
It will attack mortar joints and anything similar in the chimney
and over time, destroy it. The process will start immediately.
How long it takes for real trouble to emerge probably depends on
a lot of factors. How lucky do you feel?
On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
There are two issues. One is the chimney is supposed to be sized to
the appliances to provide the proper draft. The other, related issue,
that's a big one, is that the chimney will be too large to accomodate
the two appliances. With just
the WH, the gasses will cool too much and condense in the chimney in
winter. The condensate is acidic and over time, it will destroy the
chimney, eating away at mortar at the liner joints, etc. If the
chimney is entirely within a heated area of the building, then it's
not a problem, but few chimneys are.
When I did my furnace, I installed an aluminum liner for the WH myself.
It was easy.
I think it cost about $100 for the kit. Stainless would last longer, but
it's a lot more money. And I figured the WH probably had another 7 years
or so left in it, at that point I could revisit the issue, maybe go to
direct vent, etc.
IDK what the cost of electric is there, but NG is by far the lowest
cost to heat water most places. And with energy trends, it looks like
electric is more likely to rise more in the years ahead than NG. If
it were me and I was eliminating the chimney, I'd go with a direct vent.
On 01/23/2015 06:33 AM, trader_4 wrote:
end up getting an electric water heater and completely
My wife and I use very little hot water so this will not be terribly
critical but will strongly consider the direct vent gas WH
No dishwasher and always do cold water laundry.
Since I'm bald no long time in the shower washing my hair.
So basically if she can take a couple of showers a week that's about all
the hot water use we need.
When I put in my new furnace back in '03 the high efficiency units
were not terribly reliable - several friends and my brother had to
replace them in 4-7 years. My furnace was about 33 years old and I had
already replaced the blower motor - and since I was involved in the
addition and renovations at the house next door and they needed a new
furnace installed, I worked a deal with the HVAC contractor and had
mine done at the same time. I put in a Tempstar non condensing 2 stage
with DC variable speed blower. My gas bill didn't change at all, but
my hydro bill dropped. Last year is the first time my annual gas bill
hit $750 (furnace, water heater, and BarB Q). Had a noisy eductor fan
that I fixed by brazing the squirrel cage to the hub - other than that
it's been 100%.
Going to the high efficiency you MIGHT save 10% on your gas bill. If
you don't have the brushless dc motors, definitely go for them on the
new furnace. The electrical savings will be greater than your gas
savings going to the condensing furnace (which is all we can buy now)
On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 5:30:21 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Like I said, when I replaced my 27 year old gas furnace, my bills dropped
by 40%+. CL's math is off. Even with a brand new 80%, your 96% unit would
use ~20% less gas. Condensing makes a big difference. That steam that
goes up the chimney on a non-condensing contains a lot of heat. I know
Ed, who has a boiler has reported substantial savings too. Let us know
what you find, this will be a good test, still have winter left. But
you might want to record the meter reading when they put the new one in
so you can start measuring for a month. If you wait for the bill, you
likely won't have a full month of the new furnace.
Nothing around here is going to be too scientific because my wife is
convinced that since the furnace is higher efficiency , she can turn the
heat up higher.
I can get pretty good data from my energy bill as they compare this
years usage to last and plot calculate the average monthly temperature
We have some kind of deregulation in PRNY, and
different energy providers are different price.
I found out by comparing that I could have
saved $103 on last month's bill by switching.
I did switch, but they can only change over at
meter reads, so I get the expensive ESCO for
Christopher A. Young
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On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 8:59:58 PM UTC-5, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I'm assuming by "going to high efficiency" you mean choosing a condensing
high efficiency versus an 80% non-condensing. The test data and math
says you're going to save a lot more than 10%. A non-condensing is 80% efficient. The condensing one Philo is looking at is 96% efficient.
That's a 20% difference. If you spend $1000 a year, it doesn't take long
for that to more than pay for the increased cost of the higher efficiency
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