Few very basic Electrical questions

With all due respect -- since your initial response was to an obvious newbie you were in effect suggesting it.

I prefer to respond VERY cautiously to someone who has just bought a book at K-mart on BASIC home wiring.

Reply to
Jay Stootzmann
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Elbow -- only if it's outside the conductive suite. Take the goves and hood off and you'll get em off the finger tips, nose, ears, etc.

As you get closer you'll hear the corona off of the line and hardware.

Reply to
Jay Stootzmann

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme.

Reply to
J. Clarke

That wasn't the point, my response was to you very incorrect "And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker". I have no doubt that any DIY home wiring book or online equivalent has a lawyer mandated "turn off the main breaker" warning regardless of the validity of such. I seriously doubt any lawyer has ever changed a circuit breaker either.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

You can claim it to be incorrect if you want. Neither one of us is going to prove one way or the other what most people do. It's good to see that you recognize that virtually every source you will find online says to turn off the main breaker first. And I disagree that it's just for legal reasons. I don't see anyone saying to turn off the breaker to unplug an iron, which was the bogus analogy brought up before.

And what exactly is the big downside in not turning off the main breaker, which is staring you right in the face? Is it because your crazy aunt is on life support in the attic? Or is it because you want to show what a he man you are?

You can do what you want. My main problem is Toller replied to a newbie saying "most people don't turn off the main breaker when changing a circuit breaker." IMO, that comes pretty close to suggesting that the newbie should just go ahead and do that too, as it's no big deal for anybody to do it that way.

Reply to
trader4

(snip)

Yeah, but the iron won't KILL you if you absent-mindedly reach for something in the box to push against, whilst getting the old breaker to come off the rail. OF COURSE you turn the main breaker off, and keep in mind the panel often still has exposed hots at the top when you do this. Yeah, resetting all the clocks and stuff is the house is a PITA, but they don't call it good workmanlike practices for nothing. I'm no electrician, but working as a general construction gofer as a kid, I had the safety stuff pretty well beat into me.

Having said all that- it ain't rocket science, but since OP has clearly never done this before, I recommend they pay somebody to walk them through it the first time. Local ad paper often has semi-retired licensed electricians who do little jobs like this pretty cheap, especially if you pay them in cash. At an absolute minimum, OP, should buy one of the DIY books about home wiring and read it, if he hasn't already. Remember, safety rules usually come to be because some cowboy hot dog tried to do something the quick way, and fried himself.

aem sends...

Reply to
ameijers

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Hey I'm the newbie :-)

I really spent a number of hours on the computer looking up how to do this. The pictures in addition to explanations never really spelled it out as to is the wire connected to the breaker live or not after you shut the breaker off and snap it out. I am assuming it is not, but just want to be extra sure. (There are only two more breakers to do and it seems silly to try and find someone new to do this)

This all began because a few months back I had an electrician (shortly afterwards found out to be unlicensed) come to the house and was swapping the breakers for ones which matched my panel brand which was his advice and he did manage to get a small shock in the process, but I was not clear exactly from what since he seemed to be following the method suggested in the books that do not call for turning off the main.

I personally don't mind resetting the clocks ect because I do not plan anymore electrical in the house for anytime in the foreseeable future. Besides, every time the power goes out in my area things need resetting and I have it in a routine.

Thanks again for everyone who spent the time to help me out with these things.

Steve

Reply to
SMF

You should,be fine as long as there is a ground wire in the box for the plug.

Reply to
Colbyt

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than

120.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population.

Reply to
J. Clarke

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient.

Are you really this ignorant?

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact.

Apparently you are.

If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool.

Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do residential because they aren't good enough for commercial.

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin Award.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you won't get a single affirmative answer.

Do you also turn off the main breaker when changing a light bulb? Or do you call an electrician to change them for you because you're afraid?

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Not an analogous situation in _any_ sense.

Reply to
J. Clarke

I'm a licensed master electrician in two States with 30 years experience, doing mostly large commercial and industrial. I supervise

10 to 20 experienced journeyman electrician's. I can assure you that I de-energize _all_ electric equipment when possible. I encourage all electrician's on my crew to de-energize all equipment, use PPE, and lockout/tagout. If it is an inconvenience for the customer, we will schedule a shutdown. Sure, electrician's work stuff hot, but not without assessing the hazards, taking precautions, using PPE, having people around (and who stay far enough away) who are capable of rendering assistance should something happen, etc. I do not permit inexperienced electrician's to work anything hot, period. In this newsgroup, with mostly inexperienced people doing DIY, IMHO it is irresponsible to tell folks to work _anything_ hot.

Anyone who has done any amount of electric work knows that a lot of work is done hot without PPE; it's just the nature of the beast. However, I can tell you plenty of horror stories about how electrician's and others have been seriously injured working electric equipment hot. Part of being qualified to do electric work is being aware of the _hazards_ that exist. I personally am amazed at the number of people who are aware of shock/electrocution hazards, yet have no idea that there is also an explosion hazard.

One thing is for sure, should one make the personal decision to work electric equipment while it's energized, should an accident happen, the _first_ thing that that person is going to hear from someone ( _IF_ he/she is still alive and _IF_ he/she can still hear or see) is:' You should have de-energized that equipment."

Reply to
volts500

Indeed the LO/TO and PPE are appropriate in an industrial / commercial environment, however do you or would you ever turn off the main breaker to replace a branch circuit breaker of the snap-in variety in a residential panel (barring physical damage to the breaker being removed)?

Pete C.

Reply to
Pete C.

Like I said, as long as shutting it down doesn't cause a problem, if I'm doing it, it's gonna get shut down. Nor will I ask anyone else to do it hot. If your next question is what do I do when I change out a residential service, the answer is that I'm not going to leave a customer without power for 2 or 3 days until it gets inspected and permanently connected by the Power Co., so, yes, I'll reconnect it hot, bare handed. You can believe that I make -sure- that I'm not grounded and the meter is pulled.

Reply to
volts500

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