Fertilizing rocky soil where it's half soil half stones (and no dirt)

This is my *best* soil:

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It's half stones:
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Hence two questions ... Q1: Is your soil rocky like this?

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Q2: If so, how would you fertilize it?

The wife wanted planters for the grandchildren to put their food in so that the kids could revel in the wonders of tomatoes and melons and peppers grown from their own leftovers.

So she asked me to get her a couple of 5-gallon buckets of "soil" (she called it "dirt" but dirt and soil, I was told by my college professors, are two different things - but no matter how many times I tell her the difference - she still calls it "dirt").

I went to the lowest area of my property to find the most non-rocky soil I could find (yes, "rock" is different than "stone", as outlined by the same college professor); but even then, thousands of feet away from the bulldozed areas, I still ended up with 100% Franciscan sediments currently weathered to 50% stone and 50% smaller particles.

I sifted out with a quarter-inch grid the smaller particles, but the result is still a coffee-colored mix of what seems to be relatively infertile soil.

How would you fertilize this stuff sufficient for kids to grow plants?

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Reply to
Danny D.
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Add water.

Alternately, go get a bag or two of potting soil.

Reply to
dadiOH

It's the fertilizer and the ability of the media to hold moisture that is important. After all you can grow plants hydroponically without soil. Get a good fertilizer from a gardening center. Tomatoes also like calcium and it pays to add limestone. I use regular cheap bagged topsoil in my pots.

Reply to
Frank

+1

Or if there is use for enough, for a couple hundred bucks he can probably get a load of topsoil delivered. If he has a large lot, it can be left in a spot for use over time. For that or his existing soil, a general purposed 10-10-10 type fertilizer should be fine. I'd test the soil PH though, who knows what it is, and adjust if needed.

Reply to
trader_4

Start hauling in loads of horse manure. Check out Garrod Farms.

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Reply to
Taxed and Spent

Did you know that horse manure can carry viable weed and grass seeds ? For that reason I will only use it after it's been "hot" composted . Cow manure on the other hand is safe to use "straight from the producer" due to the way their digestive system works .

Reply to
Terry Coombs

Danny D. wrote: ...

you have a substrate, for growing veggies you'll need some compost (partially decayed organic materials) and perhaps some clay to hold moisture. if the compost is not very good you may also want to add some chopped and dried alfalfa or other nitrogen rich plant based material. let it sit (water it once in a while to keep it moist) for a few weeks.

for other gardening/soil questions the rec.garden groups still function. i'm very happy to go on at length about such things. ;)

worm composting is a very good way to keep such gardens topped up with nutrients...

songbird

Reply to
songbird

Just go buy some potting soil and mix with that crap you call soil or just disregard your "soil" and use the potting soil entirely. Couple of big bags should suffice for what you are going to do. ====

Reply to
Roy

Horse manure can often contain harmful pesticides used to keep down flies in the stable. Knew an organic farmer that would not use it.

Reply to
Frank

Forget your own soil. Buy enough of this to fill the planters:

Yes, it'll cost you money. But it'll idiot-proof your grandchildren's gardening experience.

If you cheap out and try to add fertilizer to gravel, failure is guaranteed. Organic matter is required for plant growth. There's symbiosis among plants, soil bacteria and other organisms, and dead plant matter in soil.

A user-friendly description of this is available in the novel, "The Martian".

Cindy Hamilton

Reply to
Cindy Hamilton

Hi my huckleberry friend,

You understood the quest. The quest is to learn, so I appreciate the advice that maybe the local (something) will help with testing the soil.

That's my first quest - which is to *assess* scientifically (as cheaply as possible, of course) the soil.

My first assessment was to ask you guys for an informal assessment based on the pictures. DO you think this stuff is sufficient to grow huckleberries?

As for the plants growing together - that's interesting. Very interesting. We'll limit the plants to whatever the kids or we adults eat, but both basil and peppers and tomatoes too are in the mix.

In fact, the wife grows basil and peppers all the time (but she uses potting soil).

The goal here is to figure out if the soil is good to start with.

- I need to figure out its ability to hold moisture - but how?

- I need to figure out its current NPK values - but how?

- I need to figure out its level of organic material - but how?

Then I need to figure out what to add to compensate for deficiencies.

How does the soil in the OP look (from the pictures) compared to yours?

Reply to
Danny D.

I was remiss in not mentioning the whole point is to teach the kids. It's best to teach them using their own stuff. That's why we're using "our" soil. And that's why we're using "their food waste".

Sure, we could buy seeds and buy potting soil; but that defeats the scientific purpose.

It's ok if we fail - but it's not OK if we don't understand WHY we failed. We want to understand the soil first - which is my main question.

Then, we want to understand how to improve the soil second. That's my second question.

Ah, this is the second *assessment* of the soil pictures. The first assessment was that it was "crap" and your assessment is that it's "gravel".

I certainly would agree that half of it is "gravel"; but I already sifted out that half, so, now it's all *not gravel*.

Is the not-gravel which is left still *gravel* in your eyes?

This is a key point! I don't *see* any organic matter in this soil. Would I normally be able to *see* organic matter in decent soil?

NOTE: Back east, years ago, I remember the black soil full of bugs and roots; but *this* soil is not that way at all. Very brown. No roots. Dunno if that's a clue (but it probably is).

How do I get *organic* matter into soil? Do they sell organic matter as such?

Heh heh ... funny you mention this because the *movie* with Matt Damon is partially what inspired this experiment.

We want the kids to understand their own soil, their own food waste, and to understand how to improve their own soil to grow their own food.

It's a learning experiment. Failure is an option, but not learning is not an option.

So, that's why I asked for an *assessment* of the soil that I pictured.

Reply to
Danny D.

It's more an experiment of how the local soil works, with a bit of fertilizer, if needed.

So my main question is how would I *know* if fertilizer is needed?

As for the ability to hold moisture, I think the water remains by capillary action, right?

Is there a *test* for that? I guess I could weigh a pot of the soil before and after watering, and then weight it a day or two later.

But is there a standard test for how soil holds moisture?

Reply to
Danny D.

Horse manure is too much for two five-gallon buckets of soil, so, I am sorry for misleading folks.

I'm mostly asking for *technical* details like how I know if the soil is good or bad in the first place.

I did look up how plants get their nutrients.

Apparently only about 1% of the root actually *touches* nutrients, which soak into the root along a corky layer that surrounds each root cell. That corky layer utilizes ATP to *force* the nutrients into the cell since there is a *higher* concentration inside the cell so simple osmosis won't work.

However, 99% of the nutrients get *to* the roots by osmosis of the fertilizer. That is, if I put a nodule of fertilizer a few inches away from a root tip, the root can't get to the fertilizer until the nutrients

*diffuse* out by simple osmosis from the nodule to the root.

So, what seems to happen is that a *water flow* is set up where the leaves transpire water, which then causes a vacuum in the root which pulls in water by pressure, where that water flow brings the water close to the root where that water contains the fertilizer nutrients that diffused by osmosis into that water.

Once the water is pulled next to the root, then an active (and complex) process begins to actively pull the nutrients into the cell.

That's as far as I got, so any added value you can provide as to the technical process of fertilizing a bucket of soil would be helpful as the goal is for the kids to learn how the whole process of growing food works (scientifically).

Reply to
Danny D.

Funny you mention the water, as I looked up how roots uptake nutrients.

I was debating whether removing the stone chips helped or not. On the one point, the stones may create cavities for the water. But on the other hand, the roots would be forced to go around the stones. Besides, the water remains, I thing, by capillary action, around the soil nodules.

Reply to
Danny D.

If I eventually put in a vineyard, I'm sure I'll go the commercial fertilizer route (if the neighbors don't mind the stench).

However, in this case, I'm just asking for *technical* advice, such as ...

Q: How do I know if fertilizer is even needed? Q: How do I know how good (or bad) this soil is? Q: Is *your* soil half stones like mine is?

Reply to
Danny D.

You bring up good scientific points in that I doubt there is much humus (organic) material in this particular soil.

Bearing in mind the goal is to teach the kids science in the process, these soils are Franciscan sediments, which are ultra mafic rocks which covered the floor of the Pacific Ocean which were shoved fifty miles under the edge of California about 30 million years ago, and then which popped up when the Farallon Plate was consumed in this area (the Farallon Plate still exists but only north of Mendocino).

Since it's all Franciscan sediments, it's really all the same "clayish" sandstone. There's nothing else in these parts. Just that one clayish sandstone (often termed "chert").

I'm trying to find a chemical composition description of Franciscan chert but I wonder if you look at the soil in my pictures if it looks "decent" to you?

I suspect it has far too little humus to be useful. But I don't know that for a fact.

I just know that back east, the soil is black and filled with roots, whereas out here, it's a uniform brown with almost no root matter and no bugs whatsoever in it.

What is your soil like? Is it similar to mine?

Reply to
Danny D.

I know that I can get potting soil but this is a "nature" experiment, so, the natural soil is the goal, so that the kids use their own soil and their own waste food to grow their own food plants.

It's really an experiment and not a commercial venture. :)

I'm more curious if your soil is as stony as mine. Is yours half stones?

Reply to
Danny D.

You're the first to explain that the soil I found was 'crap', as that's the main goal, which is to scientifically approach this.

Of course I can do away with the soil on the property, but then the kids wouldn't learn how to analyze what it is that we have, and they wouldn't learn what they need to add to make it work better.

Consider this like the Martian Biome that was in Gravity (or whatever that movie was where Matt Damon had to grow potatoes).

We want to approach this as "our soil" and "our food waste" and "our plants", so, buying potting soil defeats the purpose.

I really just want an analysis of the existing soil, as "you" see it. So far, you're the only one to analyze it from the pictures, and you called it "crap".

I suspect it *is* crap - but how do you know that by looking at it? Was it the percentage of stones? Since I removed the stones, was it something else that triggered that assessment?

Please advise.

Reply to
Danny D.

If I do fertilize the soil, I think what I'll do is take an empty bucket and fill it half way with soil, and then sprinkle a handful or two of the fertilizer and shake it up.

Since there are only two full buckets, that won't take long.

I don't ever fertilize (don't ask me how my lawn is doing!) so I have zero experience with fertilizer.

Does it go on top and then you let it soak down? Or can I mix it up with all the soil in the two five-gallon buckets by shaking it about like I shake flour and my potato wedges?

Reply to
Danny D.

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