On 09/12/2016 1:37 PM, trader_4 wrote: ...
As a general statement, that's simply unrealizable...a very large majority of people (and many of those are quite intelligent and reasonably knowledgeable) don't know how many of the objects they use daily and mostly, competently, actually "work". It simply isn't a prerequisite.
a installation
nd your family.
nd, you know there is no ground, or should know it. "
There might be a ground present, but they are doing a disservice by not clearly showing what's there if that's what they meant. The only way it would be grounded would be if that cable is type AC and the cable sheath is the ground. It's clear there is no ground wire coming out of the cable, but it's not clear if it's AC type cable because you can't see the cable well, nor the connector fastening it. Further down that thread, they show it again and show the cable sheath as the ground path. But that pic by itself is very misleading at best.
All kinds of stuff going on there. The only answer I like is this one:
"Plausible deniability. I've always regarded these adapters as a 2-to-3-pro ng converter, rather than a proper grounding mechanism, and here's why:
In every outlet I've encountered without a third (ground) prong, there is n o ground wire. Sometimes (my parents' house) there is, but for whatever rea son the ground wire is cut off and unused. Thus, the electrical box itself isn't even grounded.
The screw holding the face plate on is electrically connected to the outlet box, and if it's not grounded, then there's not much point in using the sc rew holding the face plate on as a ground.
The companies who make these grounding adapters probably also know this, bu t they can't really get away with providing 2-to-3-prong adapter without pr oviding some way to still connect ground. So they provide a way to connect it to something that should be grounded, but often isn't. In this way, it's not their fault if something bad happens because your house wiring is faul ty.
If you do happen to have a 2-prong outlet in a properly grounded box, then the little ground tab or wire will actually provide ground continuity, as i ntended.
So, the answer is that the grounding tab is meant as a way to connect elect rically to something that in turn should be grounded (but might not be). It 's not meant as a secure attachment mechanism, though it may seem that way because of the use of a faceplate screw."
"DerbyDad03" wrote
| If a ground wire is present at the location of the 2 prong receptacles, then | you can replace them on an individual basis and attach the ground wire to | the ground screw of the 3 prong receptacle. |
Also, if the wiring is grounded BX cable, the outlet will be grounded by screwing it to the metal box.
It's how I live my life, it's worked very well for me. How others choose to live their lives, is of course, up to them. A good recent example is the guy with the Tesla car in Florida. He was so proud of the autopilot feature, he even made a youtube video of it. A few months later, he was killed when the car drove itself into the side of a tractor trailer. Had he spent the time understanding how it works, what it's limitations are, he'd likely be alive today.
ve a installation
and your family.
ound, you know there is no ground, or should know it. "
rong converter, rather than a proper grounding mechanism, and here's why:
no ground wire. Sometimes (my parents' house) there is, but for whatever r eason the ground wire is cut off and unused. Thus, the electrical box itsel f isn't even grounded.
et box, and if it's not grounded, then there's not much point in using the screw holding the face plate on as a ground.
but they can't really get away with providing 2-to-3-prong adapter without providing some way to still connect ground. So they provide a way to connec t it to something that should be grounded, but often isn't. In this way, it 's not their fault if something bad happens because your house wiring is fa ulty.
n the little ground tab or wire will actually provide ground continuity, as intended.
ctrically to something that in turn should be grounded (but might not be). It's not meant as a secure attachment mechanism, though it may seem that wa y because of the use of a faceplate screw."
I did see that answer but I'm surprised that he didn't say "If you do happen to have a 2-prong outlet in a properly grounded box, then the little ground tab or wire will actually provide ground continuity, as intended."
He should have added:
"However, if you do happen to have a 2-prong outlet in a properly grounded box, then the better solution is to install a 3-prong receptacle and throw the adapter in the shit can."
That's what I would have said...more or less.
And now we get to the finer points. This is an old house, so presumably it's old BX. In the days of old, BX did not have the bare bonding wire in it that it has today. So, the house in question here probably doesn't have the newer BX either. In which case, I would think it's probably not code compliant to rely on the old BX sheath without the bonding wire as a ground. Meaning that if you want it to be code compliant, the only way to upgrade to a grounded receptacle in that situation, is to either use a GFCI or to rewire the circuit with a ground.
Gfre?
OK, I have to pick some nits here:
Nit #1:
re: "This is an old house..."
The OP said "I am leasing an older home." Older than what? Is a 20 YO house an "older home"? Compared to new construction, yes. A 40 YO house could be considered an "older home" to someone in his 20's.
I would not presume BX until the OP told us what type of wiring he had, regardless of the age of the house. Heck for all we know, it's a really "older home" with K&T. ;-)
Nit #2:
"...the only way to upgrade to a grounded receptacle in that situation, is to either use a GFCI or to rewire the circuit with a ground."
The use of a GFCI will not result in an "upgrade to a grounded receptacle". It will allow for an "upgrade to a 3 prong receptacle" but nothing more.
(I know you know that, I'm just trying to be clear so there is no confusion, especially if the OP actually comes back and reads these responses.)
"DerbyDad03" wrote
| Nit #1: |
You could save your nits if you'd just filter out Trader_4. He always knows just enough to confuse things, and *always* wants to tell that partial knowledge.
I didn't presume anything. I gave the answer as to what to do in my first post. It was Mayayana who brought up BX and said that if that was present you could use it as the source for the new ground. I simply brought up the question of whether you can do that regardless of what kind of BX it is or not. Old BX does not have the bonding wire that new BX does. You can't use old BX to install a new grounded circuit because it's not a sufficient, approved ground. I would think that means that you can't use it as a ground to upgrade an old ungrounded receptacle to a new one that is grounded. I tossed that question out for Gfre if he cares.
Now you can go argue with Mayayana about how old is old, etc. Since it has ungrounded receptacles, that puts it circa 50+ years old, which is old enough that if it has BX, it's BX that's old enough that my point is valid. Next I suppose you'll be arguing that it's possible the village idiot wired the house only ten years go somewhere that doesn't follow NEC or where there are no inspections required, so I have to cover that possibility too.
Yes, I agree but I made that abundantly clear in my very first post.
Excuse me, you just told the OP that if in his old house he has BX cable, he can use that as the ground and go ahead and put in grounded receptacles. I don't believe that is code compliant for the reason I stated. I tossed the question out to Gfre. I think it's better we have an accurate and code compliant answer. I'm not sure if I'm right or wrong, but I know the question is legitimate. If you don't like that you can just go f*ck yourself. How's that? Still pissed off because you were wrong when you told everyone that a 32 bit architecture CPU can't address or use more than 4GB of memory and I corrected that, pointing out that Pentium II and beyond can address 64GB?
And I'd point out that in this case I gave the correct answer to the OP in my first post. Did you give a correct answer saying that you can use an old BX ground without the internal bonding strip to install a grounded receptacle where one doesn't exist today? Maybe Gfre will weigh in. I know my answer was code compliant, are you sure about yours? As sure as you were about 32 bit CPUs?
I've said that for years concerning computers. The typical comeback is that a person shouldn't have to know what it is or how it works to be able to use it. I've never agreed with that line of thinking...
Hmm. The receptacles that I've installed that are properly grounded would also provide ground thru the metal screw holding the faceplate onto them, as it's making direct contact with their grounded chassis. (although you might want to ensure the paint on that screw) has been removed so that it's metal to metal contact directly. Paint doesn't always make for a good conductor and as you know, electricity prefers the path of least resistance.
Not that I'd advise it, but, the ground would be present if you used the ground pin on the adapter with the screw holding the faceplate onto the receptacle.
That's assuming the outlet box is a metal one, and, not plastic. If it's plastic, the box itself obviously isn't grounded. The outlet is, if the ground is connected properly at both ends.
Yep.
Agreed.
If you follow what I posted, that isn't the issue. The issue is that it was proposed by Mayayana that you can use the ground provided by old BX as a ground for a new ground type receptacle. It's that ground path, through old BX cable, back to the panel that's in question, ie is it code compliant to replace a grounded receptacle with a grounding one and use an old BX without the bond strip, as the ground. I think it's probably not code compliant.
It's clear to me the box in the pic Derby posted is metal. It's also clear we've been talking about metal boxes in the follow up to Mayayana's suggestion that BX can provide the ground. And given that this is an old house with non-grounding receptacles, seems 99% it's metal boxes there too.
GFCI may not be required - but total circuit rewire would be - with grounded cable.
n I would be willing to bet the "original" receptacles are not grounded and do not have a ground present, while all "additional" circuits (added later in the life of the house) are 3 wire grounded installations. Good possibility there are a few "originals" that have been replaced with grounded outlets which do not have a ground wire installed. In many parts of the country conduit is virtually unheardof in residential wiring. Same with metallic sheather wire such as "BX". Romex all the way.
Used to be code compliant to just bolt the outlet into the metal box with the "earthed" mounting tab providing the safety ground connection to the grounded metal box.
Transition time - when grounded wire was just coming in and grounded outlets were not yet required. The electrician started wiring from the top and used up all his old wire, or started at the bottom and ran out of the new wire so finished the job with what he had left over from another job.
Actually no longer allowed to be sold (in most cases)
Here in the Chicago suburb of Naperville, conduit was required for all resi dential wiring for many years, including when my house was built by a well- known and respected local builder. When I replaced the 2-prong outlets with 3-prong outlets, I made a rash assumption that the conduit was making cont act back to the breaker box, and used the boxes as a ground source for the outlets. So far no problems, but I will have to get out my volt-ohm-meter and see wh at resistance I see between various outlet grounds and the ground at the br eaker box.
I do have gfci outlets at all locations where there is a chance of water, t he kitchen, bathrooms and all basement outlets. Too hard to find the first outlet in the power daisy chains.
Maybe that's so in Canada; nothing in US to that effect unless it's in some local extended codes. They may not be as common on the shelves simply owing to demand, but that's a different issue than "allowed"...
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