Electrical help. (Adding outlet to light switch box)

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Both white *and* black are power wires: the white wire brings power to the switch, the black wire takes power to the load when the switch is turned on.

No. You need a neutral conductor for an outlet, and you don't have one.

When wiring a switch leg (which is what you have there), both white and black carry power. Normally, the white wire is constant power, and the black wire is switched power, just as you have there. The white wire is supposed to be marked black at the exposed ends, though.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:ef56b575-3750-4a9c-bfb2- snipped-for-privacy@x13g2000vby.googlegroups.com:

another outlet or something "downstream" protected by the GFCI. So, on the outleft there are four screws, one left and right on the top, one left and right on the bottom. I only used the top pair. I think one white wire to the hot side and a "jumper" wire from the other side to one switch. (Of course the ground wire was also attached).

He has the outlet wired _in series_ with the light. Plug something in and turn it on, and the light comes on too: the circuit is completing through the light, to the neutral in the light fixture.

To the OP: if you want to find out if I'm right about that, wire the outlet up the way you had it before, verify the outlet works, then remove the light bulb. The outlet will no longer work.

Doug Miller wrote in news:XnsA18E954A5A6CAdougmilmaccom@78.46.70.116:

another outlet or

four screws,

the top pair. I think

switch. (Of

it on, and the

neutral in the light fixture.

the way you had it

no longer work.

Also, the light won't work unless there's something plugged in to the outlet, and turned on.

I will do this. Is this a legal way to wire it this way? (Where the outlet looses power if the light bulb is removed?)

current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a bla ck wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on bo th switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switc h is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot " terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switche s, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was alway s the constant power wire.

current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire on both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the switch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I take these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminals on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the switches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was always the constant power wire.

I prefer it the other way around. I like the true black (hot) wire to reside at the device that's being controlled by the switch

breaker. That much I know. I kind of thought what you said. I just wanted to tripple check.

was grounded and the other one was not.

Ditto, DD03 hit the nail on the head. While it doesn't conform to current code, it doesn't sound like a Rube either.

ed another outlet or

e four screws,

sed the top pair. I think

one switch. (Of

turn it on, and the

eutral in the light fixture.

et up the way you had it

ill no longer work.

I was going to go down that path (no pun intended) but since there is so much confusion as to what he has and how it's wired, I decided there was no sense in attempting to explain the possible reasons that things are acting like they are.

At one point he said "I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer connected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hit, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked."

Seems to me that if he turned off the light that he had jumped the GFCI to, the outlet would have stopped working, but since he's describing what he has/did "from memory" I figured that any more speculation would just add to the confusion.

Bottom line is that if there is indeed no neutral in the box, which based on the original description, there isn't, the GFCI is not going to work properly. He'll need to source power from someplace - perhaps the vanity light, perhaps the fan - and pull a length of Romex from there - assuming there's (legal) room in one of those fixture boxes for another set of connections.

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote in news:85377748-0726-4078-8963- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

looses power if the light bulb is removed?)

This is neither legal nor safe.

Stop what you're doing, and hire an electrician.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:3016d663-721a-49eb-83ac- snipped-for-privacy@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:

Correction -- *he* doesn't need to do that, the *electrician he hires* will need to do that.

He doesn't understand enough about electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely.

ll need to do that.

iring project, safely.

I was using the generic, code compliant "he". ;-)

To be honest, I was torn between "this is a.h.r and we should be teaching members how to do their own work" and saying "call a professional". In fact, early on I started typing "Put the tools down and step away from the switchbox", but stopped.

At one point, many years ago, I didn't "understand enough about electricity to do this, or any other wiring project, safely". However, some very nice member's of this group (maybe even you) were patient enough to answer my questions and teach me the right way to accomplish my goals. Since the OP has already shown that he is willing to do the work - and is still alive to tell us what he's tried so far - maybe we should try and talk him through this. Some will agree and some will not...and that's fine.

I hope that after reading the responses in this thread, including this one, he is now aware that he should have asked what needed to be done before he picked up any tools.

need to do that.

project, safely.

remember who this is posted as. he is not known for following advice, nor for not doing something that one would not normally do.

DerbyDad03 wrote in news:da957a75-4421-4bba-b29a- snipped-for-privacy@p5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

I understand, and agree with you -- up to a point. Perhaps you're unaware of this *specific* person's history in this group and at least one or two others I can think of. Attempting a project that he's totally ignorant of, getting stuck, and *then* posting requests for help is not a one-time thing with "stryped", it's a long-established pattern. (Check out his car repair problems over the years, in rec.crafts.metalworking, and you'll see what I mean.)

That, in and of itself, wouldn't be much of a problem, if it stopped there. But it doesn't. What makes it a problem is that the pattern *also* includes ignoring advice that doesn't match what he wanted to hear. That, plus 120VAC, is a Really Bad Combination.

Knowing, as I do from having read some of his other posts, that his household includes a wife and kid(s), I think it's highly irresponsible for him to be messing around with 120VAC when he clearly doesn't understand what he's doing.

I agree. I further hope that he has the sense to put the tools down, and call a professional, or at least a competent handyman.

chaniarts wrote in news:kiqb5p$pnk$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

I'm well aware of that -- which is why my advice to him has been:

- this can't be done safely

- this can't be done legally

- call a professional

If you're like me, you keep some 14/3 WG around for lighting circuits. ^_^

TDD

Attempting a

Point taken!

t in on the side, I cut another wire off an old cable and ran that from the other side of the outlet to one of the switches. I will have to look at ho me to be sure. I will say the outlet worked becasue I had a hair dryer conn ected to it and both lights worked. Also, when the switch for "test" was hi t, the outlet did not work and both lights still worked.

into the box in the wall. Like I said, before checking it out, I tested an d both white wires have power all the time. The black wires only after its individual switch is flipped.

the current light switch box. This box currently has two switches, one for the fan,light and one for the vanity light. Each switch has a white wire, a black wire, and a ground. When checking with a voltmeter, the white wire o n both switches always has power. Each black wire only has power when the s witch is turned on. I am assuming the white wire is the power wire. Can I t ake these white wires off the switches, connect them to the top and bottom "hot" terminal on the gfi outlet, then feed the switches from both terminal s on the other side of the gfi? When I did this messing around with the swi tches, everything worked properly. I just thought that the black wire was a lways the constant power wire.- Hide quoted text -

If you read what he said he did, I don't think he hooked both whites wires to the line side. He said he hooked one to the top and one to the bottom of the GFI. I don't have one sitting here in front of me, but that sounds like it's one to the line side, one to the load side. If that's what he did, even harder to figure out how it could have worked. But it isn't worth the time. He or someone else needs to figure out what he really has there and how to best proceed.

" snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" wrote in news:dcd380fd-95e6-4658-afe4- snipped-for-privacy@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com:

Sounds to me more like he connected both whites to the line side terminals, and both blacks to the load side. Assume *that*, and it's very easy to see how it could have

- the load connected to the pass-through terminals will work until the TEST button is pressed

- the load connected to the outlet-only terminals will work if there's something plugged into the GFCI, it's turned on, and the GFCI TEST button has not been pressed.

- whatever is plugged into the GFCI will operate because the outlet is _in series_ with the lighting loads, and it's using the neutral there.

Someone else, ideally.

How could the GFI work connected that way? He would have the fan circuit on one side of the GFI (eg hot) and the light on the other side (eg neutral) of the GFI. It would be totally unbalanced and should trip immediately.

" snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net" wrote in news:13d1c8cd-8de5-47e3-ab2f- snipped-for-privacy@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com:

Yeah, you're right -- I didn't think that through. Never mind...