Electrical - convert 110v to 220v outlet using 12/2 w/ground

[nicksanspam]

I mean "backfeed" as in "make the meter go backwards."

Nick

[Doug Miller]

To use your words... So?

The prohibition on connecting non-Bell devices to phone lines was a Bell policy, not a law. The "Carterfone decision" prohibited that policy. Answering machines were never illegal. Nor were they ever dangerous.

[Doug Miller]

And it is a FACT that doing so was prohibited by the PHONE COMPANY, not by any law.

[nicksanspam]

But they were "dangerous and illegal" :-)

Nick

[Doug Miller]

That makes even less sense than usual from you.

[trader4]

Doug is incorrect. The ban on connecting non-phone company devices was not a mere issue of phone company "policy". While AT&T was the company that came up with idea of prohibiting the attachement of non AT&T eqpt, it was reviewed and adopted as an actual tariff by the FCC.

Here from part of the FCC decision on the issue, where they review what was in effect at the time:

1. Whether, with respect to the period from February 6, 1957, to December 21, 1966, the regulations and practices in tariff FCC No. 132 of the American Telephone and Telegraph Co. were properly construed and applied to prohibit any telephone user from attaching the the Carterfone device to the facilities of the telephone companies for use in connection with interstate and foreign message toll telephone service; and if so....

Now, last time I checked, no company can impose a tariff. And govt tariffs imposed by the FCC do have the force of federal law behind them. So, I think Nick is accurate when he said that it was illegal to connect non-phone company devices. And also accurate when he said it was claimed to be dangerous at the time, because that was precisely one of the issues AT&T claimed to get the ban OK'd by the FCC. They claimed that unknown eqpt could damage or destroy the phone system eqpt.

[zxcvbob]

This is bad. You need to use underground feeder cable (UF) for buried wire. If you used the wrong wire, I'll assume you also didn't bury it deep enough.

I recommend digging it up and running the correct wire, then you'll have a neutral. (you might or might not need a ground) Also, look into installing a 70A subpanel (you don't have to feed them with a 70A circuit, 30A would be fine.) The ones I've seen have room for 4 breakers, and that would be perfect -- one 15A breaker for a light, another 15A for a [GFCI] convenience outlet, and a double for whatever size you need for the pump.

Best regards, Bob

[tim]

zxcvbob wrote:

Yeah, I am starting to get it. This was how the previous owner ran the wiring and I have no idea how deep it is, i'm sure it's about a foot deep. Ok, plan is to run new wiring from house.

Ok, given this, I am now making plans to run new wiring with a subpanel to the pumphouse but it looks like i only have 2 single slots available (right next to each other) in my existing main panel. In the future I want to run a subpanel into the barn as well so increasing the main now makes sense for future expansion. My main is kind of funky, on the top are 4 large ckts that run major systems - water heater, dryer, range, heating, there is no main shutoff here but in the middle is a "main" that shuts down the rest of the smaller ckts (lights, outlets, etc). The house was built in '74 so maybe this was a normal thing to do back then?? no idea..

[zxcvbob]

Split bus mains, or something like that. I've never seen them, but I've heard of them. (this isn't a Zinsco panel, is it?)

You can have up to 6 main disconnects in a service panel. Is there one more unused "major systems" circuit you can use? You only listed five.

Bob

[tim]

ok, split bus, makes sense. Mine is a Square D.

I did a quick google search on split bus and only came up with a hit on that Zinsco you mentioned - looks nasty. I'm not that bad off. :-)

I'd have to look to be sure, but the top section is full, the 2 slots that are open are at the bottom and would be controlled by the second main shutoff. Actually there are 4 slots but looks like the connection to the main spans 2 side by side slots so it appears it's an either/or setup, not both. On the panel cover 2 are labeled DO NOT REMOVE so I assume this is the case)

[Chris Lewis]

According to Doug Miller :

Depends on what you mean by dangerous.

Back in those days there weren't public universal standards on how those things worked. No minimum voltage isolation, no maximum load specs, a whole host of things.

A device could in fact dangerous - improper isolation leading to 120V getting onto the phone line. Or the converse, being too fragile to voltage spikes causing fires. Or devices imposing too high a load on a phone circuit, causing the circuit to go dead - real annoying in party line...

More or less the same situation with joe homeowner who thinks he knows wiring and doing the house with 18ga zipcord.

With deregulation, and a simple realization by the phone companies that they can't keep up with the demand for high-tech gadgets, the standards are well established, and there's an approval process.

[maradcliff]

Using NM underground is a real bad idea. If it were in conduit, it would not be much of a problem, but direct burial is a NO NO. It will likely fail in a short time, but one never knows till it happens.

75 feet is a long way to dig, but you may have to do it sooner or later. I'd replace it with a 10-3 plus gnd. That way you have extra capacity for the future.

Mark

[maradcliff]

You are smart to replace that wire. If your panel lacks space, use the split breakers if available, otherwise place a small 2 or 4 breaker box next to your main box. Then put another one of those small boxes in the shed. You can put a double breaker for the 220 pump, (probably 20A) and a single 15A or 20A for the light and outlet. Or two singles, since I always like to keep the light separate. That way if a power tool blows the breaker, I can still see.

I'd put a 30A double in the house and run 10-3 w/gnd UF to the shed. If you never want to dig it up again, use that gray plastic conduit and shove it thru. Just be sure the conduit enters the house and the shed. It dont need to go all the way to the breaker boxes if you use UF cable. I generally use an elbow to come out of the ground, then use an LB connector to enter the buildings. Caulk around them and your wires are all safe inside that pipe, and makes it easy to replace if ever needed.

You can rent a trencher at some rental places. beats the shovel.

By the way, if you leave that old NM wire in the ground, you can always use it as a phone line, speaker wire, or whatever. Heck, we all know you want phone and music in your pump house :)

[Chris Lewis]

In most places, you can already do that if you have the proper code-approved interconnect. Clearly you're going to have to establish an account with the local power authority so that they'd notice and know where to send the cheques. Secondly, you'll have to have some sort of co-generation that's cheap enough and high enough capacity to be worthwhile backfeeding. Gasoline/diesel generators don't qualify.

[gfretwell]

It is certainly a bad idea (not code compliant) but if nobody hits it with a shovel or other physical damage it will probably last forever.

[Mark Lloyd]

I made that mistake once. It didn't last very long.

[gfretwell]

What happened to it? When I was fixing the wiring here I found some buried romex that had lived in the Florida dirt for over 30 years. It was holding a GFCI I had installed when I moved in OK. I only replaced it because I had the yard torn up anyway.

[Chris Lewis]

According to :

It'll depend on the soil type. Acidic vs. basic vs. ?

I'd expect embrittlement of the sheath.

There _are_ forms of NMx permitted for direct burial. Such as what we (in Canada) call "NMWU". Looks just like ordinary plastic romex, except the sheath is thicker. And labelled as "NMWU". This is (I don't know how _exactly_) equivalent to your UF.

[Mark Lloyd]

I don't really know. I never dug it up, but cut it off and ran an overhead line. I don't live there anymore.

BTW, I do have such a thing here, but it's UF cable.

[gfretwell]

The only difference between UF and NM is the thickness of the jacket. It is the same material and the conductors are the same. Even the old paper jacket Romex used type TW conductors that were wet location listed. It was that cable assembly that isn't.

I certainly would never advise someone to use NM in any wet location but I have seen it done often enough to know you can get away with it until it gets damaged. The difference between the shovel hit that takes out NM and one that takes out UF is miniscule anyway. If you inadvertantly dig up a UF cable you usually damaged it.