The human population WILL stabilize at some point- when the carrying capacity of our ecological niche is exceeded, either long-term through depletion of resources, or short-term due to some sort of choke point caused by weather or natural disaster. Humans have been expanding their available carrying capacity by use of technology, and by taking resources used by other species.
I recommend that humanity limit their numbers on their own, by reducing reproduction to no more than replacement rate. If we wait for mother nature to provide the genetic choke point via a massive die-off, it ain't gonna be pretty. See sub-Saharan Africa for a small preview. Imagine the whole planet like that, but with even less food and water.
With tax credits and incentives I think it already does make economic sense for an average homeowner.
Where will you install the panels?
That's critical. South facing is the best location. Next would be West or East with a 15 or 20% reduction in output.
I'm sure that's a possibility in some cases, but plenty of them are going up fully permitted and inspected on ordinary roofs.
That's a valid issue. Clearly they are best suited to a new roof, as the panels are generally warranteed for 25 years so the lifespans are in the same range, at least with a shingle roof.
Manufacturers recommend cleaning them off with a hose a couple times a year, if possible. If you don't the output will be reduced, but not by a huge amount.
=A0>Will replacement
As long as you buy the panels from a major manufacturer that should not be a problem.
=A0>Will you be living in your house long enough to realize a payback?
If the panels are installed on the back of the house or alternatively on a side not highly visible from the street, I don't think there is any question that it adds value to the house and you will likely get back most if not all of what the system cost. I'd certainly pay more for a house with solar, knowing I get close to free electric.
On the other hand, if you had to install them on the roof facing the street, I think they look like hell and at best it probably doesn't add value to the house and could decrease it. Also, mounting them on the ground can be an option in some cases.
=A0>Since you plan to do the work
An interesting point, but I don't see that as a big issue. Just put a temporary cover on them. I think a bigger issue is getting the install done right, which involves a lot:
Making sure the panels are oriented optimally. Correctly sizing the system. Installing them so that you don't wind up with leaks Installing them so the warranty remains intact is critical and I would suspect many of the companies will require professional installation to honor the warranty. Complying with all the electric code issues in hooking up to the grid.
In short, I do a lot of my own work, but this is one thing I would not attempt to do myself.
HD also runs seminars with their local installers using BP panels. The seminar is about an hour and a good forum to get basic info and ask questions. Even better, I'd find some local folks who have had one installed for a year or more and ask them questions.
Could be true, but then for many people it's not an either/or situation.
If you do the actual numbers in NJ, which is one of the most solar friendly states and use reasonable assumptions, solar electric comes out a winner for the homeowner. However, that is only because of the subsidies from the govt, which the rest of us wind up paying.
A 6.5 Kwatt system runs about $48K installed. You get a fed tax credit of 30% which effectively knocks $14K off the price.. NJ also has a program than can kick in maybe another $7K, but the program is a real cluster f***. There isn't enough money, so every 4 months they take applications for new systems. You have to get the application approved BEFORE you can install the system. In May, they had thousands of apps the first day they were open to receive them and then within a day closed the window and stopped taking apps and you are left to start all over. The application is extensive and must include a signed contract with the installer, etc. How many times you or the installer want to try to play that game is questionable. So, for practical purposes, your probability of getting that one seems low.
However, the utilities have to meet a goal of getting to 20% renewable by 2020. So they are buying renewable energy credits from homeowners which count toward that goal. You get one for every 1000 KWH that your system generates, regardless of whether you use it or some or all of it goes into the grid. The value of the credits is set by auction/ trading based on how badly the electric companies need them. Currently they were going for about $550. At that price, the system gets you about $4k a year in cash, which is a major component in making it viable. That 6.5KW system will also reduce a $140 a month bill close to zero.
If you factor all that together, figure that you finance the system with a home equity loan that is tax deductible, depreciate it over 25 years, add in $500 a year in maintenance, etc, you can run the numbers, but IMO you come out way ahead.
One other interesting factor to consider, that you might not expect, is that in the case of a black out, you will still not have power to the house unless you also install a battery array. If the grid goes down, so does the system. I haven't heard a good technical explanation of why, but I believe it's due to the fact that the system needs something to balance it out. For example, if it were stand alone and a cloud came by, you could have a brownout situation which could damage devices in the house using the electricity.
As a disclaimer, I'm not an expert at any of this. All of the above is based on what I've learned so far looking into it myself.
i just put in a 7.5kw system. i watched the installers pretty much all the time, and a very good handyman would be able to everything they did without too much problems. however, you have to have a wide breadth of knowledge, since it involves cutting a lot of holes into your roof, tying the new structure to the existing structure, calculating tilt/wind load/weight/etc issues, high voltage dc wiring, installation of the ac/dc converter, meeting all code for electricians and permitting/inspections by the city. furthermore, almost all the systems are grid-tied, so the power company has a say in who gets to install the backfeed wiring. they may not want to allow a diy to do this, so you'd have to check first with them.
in answer to some of the above specific questions:
- flat roof with a parapet hides the panels from the street completely
- southwest facing house
- after rebates, at my current usage, payback is 4.5 years. the power company has filed for a rate increase the last 3 years in a row and i presume will do so in the future if gas prices go up. this will make the payback date sooner.
- my 7.5kw system cost about $44k, or $7.5k after rebates
- currently in s arizona i can generate about 50kwh/day. this goes down as ambient temps go up. i cleaned them off a few days ago, and generation rate went up by 1.2kwh/day, which is pretty significant. they recommend cleaning at least once/month.
- the installation part of the $44k was about $6k, so at most you're going to save 10-15% for diy, but you may pay more for the hardware as you'd not get the bulk discounts that the installer is getting
- inverter warrantee is 10 yrs. panel warrantee is 25 yrs. i'm not sure your maintenance rate of 500/year is correct, at least for the first 10 years or so.
it's a no brainer with the massive rebates that are available if you can get onto the accepted list at the power company; it makes almost no sense if you don't get rebates, although i know of people who have installed systems before the rebates came into being a couple of years ago in my area. they are happy with their systems, but would have been a lot more happy with rebates.
On Jun 1, 12:50=A0pm, "Existential Angst" wrote: -
I provided another post in this thread where I went over in DETAIL the costs and subsidies applicable to solar electric in NJ. That's right, actual information about the solar economics in the state that the OP was asking about. I didn't post it in this part of the thread with your BS and digression into McMansions, NY subways and God knows what else that had nothing to do with the question, because the other spot in the thread was on topic and more appropriate. Capiche? And if you do the correct ROI, solar makes very good economic sense for a homeowner looking to install it in NJ today. You don't even have a clue as to what subsidies are available to the OP, yet as usual, you spout off and make an ass of yourself. Then you quicky resort to hurling insults at nearly everyone else on this group.
I provided another post in this thread where I went over in DETAIL the costs and subsidies applicable to solar electric in NJ. That's right, actual information about the solar economics in the state that the OP was asking about. I didn't post it in this part of the thread with your BS and digression into McMansions, NY subways and God knows what else that had nothing to do with the question, because the other spot in the thread was on topic and more appropriate. Capiche? And if you do the correct ROI, solar makes very good economic sense for a homeowner looking to install it in NJ today. You don't even have a clue as to what subsidies are available to the OP, yet as usual, you spout off and make an ass of yourself. Then you quicky resort to hurling insults at nearly everyone else on this group. ==============================================
Costs and subsidies are not an ROI calc. Do one, and show that the payback is less than 30 years. Or 60 years.
There you go again, spouting off about things where you don't have a clue. Costs and any federal or state subsidies are obviously key components of calculating ROI. For example, if you spend $50K on a solar electric system, you get a 30% fed tax credit. Only a complete idiot would claim that $15K should not be factored in to ROI.
There you go again, spouting off about things where you don't have a clue. Costs and any federal or state subsidies are obviously key components of calculating ROI. For example, if you spend $50K on a solar electric system, you get a 30% fed tax credit. Only a complete idiot would claim that $15K should not be factored in to ROI. ==================================================
First, I never claimed that. Second, you STILL have not done an ROI calc.
If you need a hint, see my calc, but I'd certainly expect that, with all your chest-thumping and blusteirng, you'd do a much better, more accurate, and thorough job.
Another hint: there is a bit of an error. Can you find it?
As with most of what you post, there isn't just a bit of an error. It's total hogwash. I already pointed out 3 MAJOR errors:
1 - You didn't include a whopping 30% federal tax credit that amounts to tens of thousands of dollars, reducing the cost.
2 - You didn't include the value of REIC certificates that one receives in the state of NJ for each 1000Kwh of solar generated which amounts to thousands of dollars a year in income for your proposed
6Watt system.
3 - You didn't include possible NJ state rebates that can total thousands of dollars for said system.
That;s why you think it takes 60 years to break even on a solar electric system, when it's an order of magnitude less.
To the above I'd add that unless your Uncle owns the solar panel company, the inverter company, and half of the equipment is free, you aren't going to get a 6KW solar electric system in NJ for $3/watt.
As with most of what you post, there isn't just a bit of an error. It's total hogwash. I already pointed out 3 MAJOR errors:
1 - You didn't include a whopping 30% federal tax credit that amounts to tens of thousands of dollars, reducing the cost.
2 - You didn't include the value of REIC certificates that one receives in the state of NJ for each 1000Kwh of solar generated which amounts to thousands of dollars a year in income for your proposed
6Watt system.
3 - You didn't include possible NJ state rebates that can total thousands of dollars for said system.
That;s why you think it takes 60 years to break even on a solar electric system, when it's an order of magnitude less.
To the above I'd add that unless your Uncle owns the solar panel company, the inverter company, and half of the equipment is free, you aren't going to get a 6KW solar electric system in NJ for $3/watt.
Anything else I can help you out with? ==================================================
Yeah, what part of "do the ROI calc" don't you understand?
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