diesel exhaust fluid

Today I passed an auto parts store advertising "diesel exhaust fluid". Does anyone know what that is?

Reply to
Gary H
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It is liquid urea. All 2010 and newer diesel engines in the U.S. must produce near zero emissions. To do this there are currently two methods. One method requires a wicked expensive filter, which, if it goes bad will cost the vehicle owner in the neighborhood of 3 thousand dollars, plus it jacks up the initial cost of the vehicle. The other method uses a separate tank of liquid urea, DEF, and injects it into the exhaust pipe causing a chemical reaction with the exhaust gases effectively neutralizing them. Currently it's really expensive, but ultimately It'll probably cost around $3 per gallon. On an average sized vehicle a five or six gallon tank should last for around 16000 miles.

Reply to
RBM

Slight correction, 2007+ diesels have diesel particulate filters (DPF),

2010+ diesels have the UREA injection and selective catalyst reduction *in addition* to the DPF. The UREA injection and SCR is supposed to also help reduce the particulate generation so the DPF doesn't fill up and require regeneration as often, but the DPF is still there. The DPFs are also more like $1200 or so, not $3k, and the UREA is under $3/gal already.
Reply to
Pete C.

WOW! Anything to prevent wholesale adoption of a clean fuel alternative.

BTW, what ever happened to BMWs promise to have a hydrogen powered car on showroom floors in 2 yrs .....3 years ago!?

nb

Reply to
notbob

If we had a practical "clean fuel alternative" we'd all be buying them

Reply to
RBM

Hydrogen was proved viable 30 yrs ago. You get three guesses why it's not available. The first 2 don't count.

nb

Reply to
notbob

Nobody figured out where you get the hydrogen in any economically reasonable source. Most comes from natural gas.

Reply to
gfretwell

?????

Hydrogen comes from a simple electrical process. Anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine can produce it. Slowly, but indefinitely, from renewable energy sources. Why do you think this is not technology no one is pursuing? DUH!

nb

Reply to
notbob

I'm not sure how other manufacturers are doing it, but Sprinters have two separate types of systems. The earlier 2007-2009 use particulate filters, and the 2010 began using Adblu urea and don't have particulate filters. In the Sprinter blog there are several posts from members that have paid $3000 for particulate filter replacement. They also talk about having them cleaned for $500. As far as the price of Def, two weeks ago I needed some and the best I was able to get it for was $10 a gallon. I'm told Mercedes gets $20, so I didn't feel too bad. Here's a site that explains the Sprinter systems:

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Reply to
RBM

When there's a practical vehicle that uses "clean fuel alternatives" we'll all be buying them

Reply to
RBM

Probably they decided they could not make a profit selling a car that runs on a fuel that is not available.

Reply to
Larry W

Hydrogen makes a fine fuel but where will it come from? Except for a very miniscule naturally occurring amount, the only way to produce it is by using some other energy source or from a "cracking" process during oil refining.

Reply to
Larry W

Perhaps there is no infrastructure for the distribution of hydrogen fuel for vehicles? 8-)

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Yeah- but what do you do with the byproduct of breaking the H2 off those water molecules. Don't want the kids breathing in that gassy by-product.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

Guys like notbob like to point to the ocean and say "It's full of hydrogen!" Which of course ignores that fact that it's inconveniently bonded to oxygen and we know from basic chemistry that it takes as much energy to seperate that bond as you get out of it when it later is recombined again. In other words, hydrogen is more of an energy transport mechanism than a fuel. The easiest and most cost effective solution to generate the hydrogen would be to use nuclear power, but somehow I doubt notbob would call that clean. It's kind of like the folks that keep saying electric cars are zero emission, as if electricity you could ever want just comes out of the wall outlet.

I believe in the case of hydrogen, there is also the issue of how to safely store enough of it in a car.

Reply to
trader4

I suppose you also believe that the oil companies, in a vast conspiracy, bought up the mythical carburetor that we've heard about for decades that got 100MPG. Let's do a bit of critical thinking. We have car manufacturers worldwide in dire straights. GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Yet, we have this miracle hydrogen solution and not one of them in the entire world is commercializing a great solution that would not only keep them in business, but make them billions. I can think of two reasons for that:

1 - Some vast conspiracy against hydrogen cars.

2 - Hydrogen isn't nearly as practical and cheap a solution as you believe it to be.

As for anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine being able to produce it, that's true. Now tell us how you produce enough of it, how many solar panels are required, how you get it into a form that can be stored safely in a car to give a reasonable driving range, etc. List all the equipment required, it's cost, and show us that hydrogen is a viable solution.

If all this is so readily doable, why don't YOU start the company to do it and you'll be the next Bill Gates.

Reply to
trader4

I follow this area pretty closely and I don't remember seeing the proof you mentioned. Do you have any references?

Reply to
George

I suppose you also believe that the oil companies, in a vast conspiracy, bought up the mythical carburetor that we've heard about for decades that got 100MPG. Let's do a bit of critical thinking. We have car manufacturers worldwide in dire straights. GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. Yet, we have this miracle hydrogen solution and not one of them in the entire world is commercializing a great solution that would not only keep them in business, but make them billions. I can think of two reasons for that:

1 - Some vast conspiracy against hydrogen cars.

2 - Hydrogen isn't nearly as practical and cheap a solution as you believe it to be.

As for anyone with a solar panel or wind turbine being able to produce it, that's true. Now tell us how you produce enough of it, how many solar panels are required, how you get it into a form that can be stored safely in a car to give a reasonable driving range, etc. List all the equipment required, it's cost, and show us that hydrogen is a viable solution.

If all this is so readily doable, why don't YOU start the company to do it and you'll be the next Bill Gates.

Like I said, when they build a "practical solution" we will buy it. Any practical solution would have to stand on it's own legs, unlike this current electric car stupidity, which without govt subsidizing wouldn't sell a single unit.

Reply to
RBM

Likely they noticed all of the non trivial issues related to using hydrogen.

Reply to
George

Exactly, I follow this stuff pretty closely and as you noted there are non trivial issues concerning use of hydrogen to fuel a car.

Reply to
George

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