Concrete Border Question (2025 Update)

Small claims court or a threatening letter from a lawyer usually does the trick.

You have a Contract, either way. If it is written, it is even better. If not written, you still have an oral contract. You paid money in exchange for his agreement to perform work. Inherently, that is a Contract In almost all states, there is an implied warranty of fitness for use. You don't have that in your back yard.

Have an attorney write the LLC a demand letter. If you don't get a proper response, take it to small claims court. No Judge would want crumbling concrete in his or her back yard. Also, notify your local Better Business Bureau .

Good Luck.

--James--

No question something is very wrong. It does take a long time for concrete to reach it's maximum strength. However, this is a declining exponential type of curve, so by 3 weeks, it should be closing in on the last part of the curing, and certainly not falling apart. Was the concrete kept moistened while it cured in the 112 deg heat? Sounds to me, with such a small pourt, it could have dried out before it cured, leaving you with half dust.

I'd wait the 4 weeks and then show the guy that more is still falling apart. If he refuses to fix it, get a quote from another contractor, which clearly indicates what the problem is, and a price to fix it. If he refuses to fix it, you can try small claims court. Getting a judgement will probably be easy, many of these guys never even show up. However, collecting it, is quite another matter.

- Chet Hayes -

- Nehmo - Somewhat aside form the topic of this thread, and I won't bore you with the details.

The small-dispute court TV shows have generated the false public perception that small civil courts actually dispense justice. I can't speak for everywhere, but in Kansas City, Kansas, don't expect Judge Roy Brown to hear your case. Actually, for the $31 it costs to file an under-$500 case*, expect _maybe_ five minutes in front of someone who just wants to dispense with you and go to the next case.

(The police, by the way, at least KCK Officer Watters-Patton, won't answer your subpoena to testify either.)

However, I did made some useful observations. After watching a morning-worth of cases - many of the cases were ex-wives suing for unpaid child support. Then the process was to take the judgment to Drivers Licensing to get the guy's license suspended. - it appeared, at least in that court, the plaintiff had to have _all_ the paperwork to prove his or her case. Oral-only agreements weren't recognized.

• Over here, OP's proper venue would be Limited Action Court, and he or she would be unlikely to prevail without an attorney.

? He has recourse, with or without a contract, he can take the guy to ? small claims court. And he almost certainly has at least a verbal ? contract as there was a meeting of the minds and an agreement reached.

You're right, of course.

I've used written contracts for so long that I didn't even consider a verbal contract.

However, if his state requires a license for this work, his "contractor" has no capacity to contract.

- Anteater -

- Nehmo - Even though I used to live in Arizona, I don't have any idea of what the small-claims situation is in Maricopa County, assuming that's where you are.

In any case, this is not a NG with experts on that subject. I'd refer you to another NG, but the usenet legal groups are full of wrong advice. Maybe this isn't a question that can be answered via the NGs.

As I already said, over here in Kansas City, Kansas, your type of claim would be properly placed in Limited Action Court (not small claims), and attorneys usually represent plaintiffs there.

But if you *do* go to court and get a judgment for your cause, you can take that and use it to collect in some fashion. For example, if you know where his bank account is, you can garnish it. There's a fee for attempting that too, BTW.

- Anteater - Could we show a video of the border falling a part?

- Nehmo - That certainly would be evidence the concrete wasn't up to standard, but _who_ is responsible for that? . Legal junk isn't black and white. It's even possible, if you go to court, *you* would end up with a fine or a judgment against you.

Sure there are standards...depends on the useage. For your application? No idea. But you would have to have your crumbly concrete tested to establish its characteristics. Testing = $$.

If its as bad as you say it is, even a layman like a judge would see so immediately. IMO

______________________

Anytime you buy anything you have an implied warranty of merchantability. That means that the thing needs to be suitable for its purpose. Potential injury or harm have no bearing on that. Nor does being a nuisance. Just being inadequate for the job - not being what you paid for - is sufficient. _______________________

I have no idea. _______________________

If things are as you say I can't imagine how any "preparation" he might do would matter. ________________________

What do you recommend?

I am not recommending anything, just relating information gleaned from having sued in small claims numerous times over a 30 year span in Hawaii. All my suits were for non-payment of services and I never lost - including against a state Attorney General and a candidate for Lieutenant Governor. Many times (50% ?), just filing pried loose what was owed. _________________________

That's something you alone have to decide. I can only repeat my original admonition that avoiding court is better for all concerned.

If he agreed that it was his fault you have half the battle won; you need only to get him to agree to fix it. That's a selling job. As is virtually everything else. Either you sell him on the idea that he should fix it or he sells you on the idea he won't.

How to sell him? Better said how *not* to do so: threats won't do it ("telling the BBB", "all my friends"), begging and pleading will do nothing nor will yelling and screaming.

A super salesman named Elmer Wheeler used to say "sell the sizzle, not the steak". That means to sell the benefits of the product/idea rather than the product/idea itself. It's a marvelous concept for getting someone to do something that they don't really want to do but you have to find a hot button...something that makes it more beneficial to them to comply than not. Just as an example, suppose this guy has a son upon whom he dotes...what would be his reaction if you gently admonished him by asking if his son would be proud of his dad's work? If he squirmed a bit, one might continue in that vein by asking what his son's friends would say to him if they knew his dad didn't stand behind his work? Et cetera. More squirming? Maybe then tell him you'd really like to get the matter resolved and what would it take (on your part) to do so? As I said, this is just an example - your goal is to make it beneficial to and easy for him to fix the problem. If you can't then suing is a last recourse. Good luck either way.

-- dadiOH _____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at

1. The web site claiming you have to show injury is wrong.
2. It's really simple: you did not get what you paid for. If you didn't get what you paid for, you are legally entitled to a refund or replacement.
3. Sue him in small claims court. Take a hunk of the "stuff" (I refuse to call it "concrete"). Maybe a couple of LARGE pictures showing the "stuff" in situ. Judges love simple exhibits.
4. Assuming he doesn't show or you get a judgement in your favor, here's the usual drill. A. At some point - usually 30 days after a ruling - you can get, for just a few bucks, a copy of "Final Judgement." B. Take this around to the agency that enforces small claims - in my jurisdiction it's the Constable's Department. C. Give them some money (all these fees, by the way, are automatically added to the judgement). D. They send a threatening letter, a really threatening letter. Time passes. E. Go back to the Constable. Give them more money. F. Constable then performs a "Levy and Execute" order. They go to the dude's business or home and SEIZE real property sufficient to pay the judgement when sold at auction. Usually the stuff they haul off is, in their opinion, worth about four times the money they're looking for. G. Ultimately, you get your money.

Forget the video; courts don't have TV sets. You've already contacted him. Forget about further contact. Just sue him. Be sure you sue him in the small claims court where you're a voter. The small claims court clerk is usually happy to help.

If none of the above works, kidnap his cat.

I would take pictures, save a sample of the crumbling concrete, and get a couple of written estimates from legitimate contractors to fix it. The estimates should include a brief explanation of what they think is wrong with it. That's all you should need, video is ok as a back up too.

I'd certainly send the guy a final letter giving him a couple weeks to respond before you file suit. The letter should be sent both regular mail and certified. He may refuse the certified, but you can tell the court you sent it both ways, so they know he got it.

Many of these guys don't even bother to show up in court, in which case you get a default judgement. The problem is, these guys are usually judgement proof and they have 10 other judgements outstanding already. To collect, you have to find assets, eg bank accounts, homes, etc. The obvious problem is that these guys are way ahead of you and have no assets that you can find in their name. You likely can't garnish his wages either, because he doesn't have a regular job.

Did you pay him by check? If so, the canceled check, which you should have for court, will have the bank account where he deposited it. That can be a valuable clue to where to look to collect the judgement. If that fails, here's a great trick that may work, though it takes some effort and may not be worth it for a small amount. You send him some type of refund/rebate check that looks like it's official. It has to be a real check, if you have a friend or someone in business that it can come from, that makes it easy. So, you send him a check for say $10 and hopefully, he deposits it somewhere he has an account. When you get the cancelled check back, voilla!, you now know where he has a bank account and you can go after it.

Good luck!

There should not have been a problem. Any cement company will deliver the correct mix if you just tell them what it is for, ie foundation, driveway, sidewalk, etc. They have all the recipies.

Tom

Alan R Barr ( snipped-for-privacy@1066ad.fs.com) wrote:

: > > Hi, : > > We recently had a concrete border installed. They use one of those : > > border machines. We had this done about three weeks ago. The other day : > > we were working out in the yard and I dropped the wooden handle of the : > > shovel onto the border from a distance of two feet above. It left a : > > big 2cm deep, 1 inch wide0 or so dent in the border. We ignored it and : > > figured it was a air pocket or some other anomaly. About an hour or so : > > I was walking by and my foot brushed by a corner of the border and it : > > fell apart. I got down and started rubbing it with my hand and the : > > whole thing started to crumble apart in my hand. I went around to : > > several other parts of the border in the back yard and I took a : > > regular stick and using a regular stick, with surprisingly little : > > force I made a 2 inch deep mark simply by rubbing it. The whole border : > > is this loose where simply by brushing it with your foot it will start : > > to crumble apart. This is 3 weeks after it was poured. I went into the : > > front yard and it was hard as a rock. I spend several minutes hitting : > > it in various places with a screwdriver, and I didn't so much as leave : > > a scratch. I picked up a pebble size piece of the concrete from the : > > front yard that was excess and it was firm as a rock, I couldn't break : > > it apart. I went into the backyard, and picked up a similarly sized : > > piece of extra cement and it crumbled into dust in my hand. All the : > > borders in the backyard are that weak. : > >

: > > So I called the guy who came back. He said, "Well, it looks like : > > the mix for the backyard possibly was not as good as the one for the : > > front yard." He then changed his view around, and rather then accept : > > responsibility he said it was our fault for disturbing it before the : > > required 4 week curing process was over. He only replaced the corner : > > which had fallen apart. Now, I am no expert and that is why I am : > > referring to this forum. In my mind however 3 weeks should be enough : > > time for a concrete border to cure, and even if it did require a full : > > 4 weeks, shouldn't by 3 weeks into it (under the hot 112 degree : > > Phoenix sun), it be hard enough not to crumble so easily? Our argument : > > was, well, if the front is solid as a rock, and they were both poured : > > on the same day, shouldn't the back be equally as strong? The guy is : > > not a licensed contractor (we checked after these problems happened) : > > so we can't take him to the board of contractors. He is an LLC. He : > > refused to replace the backyard borders besides the one corner citing : > > it wasn't his fault, it was all our fault. In my mind though, it is : > > not our fault if he mixed it wrong. : > >

: > > So I wondered if anyone who knew this field of expertise could : > > give their opinion on the matter, and possibly refer me to some : > > concrete standards or something. What retaliation is there for : > > something like this? Is it really our fault even though we didn't do : > > anything to it? How strong should a cement border be? : > >

: Well I reckon they were deliberately short on the Portland Cement, or "Dust" : as its nickname is here in the U.K, it should have been quite resistant to : "rubbing" after just a couple of days, of course to much water would have : caused the "Dust" to have not been evenly distributed throughout the Mix, it : sort of settles out , and it takes about 6 months to cure completely, also : an occaisional wetting is advisable to ensure it does not dry too quickly in : the Sun when its able to withstand a "wetting" , I believe the mix should be : 1 part cement to 4 / 5 parts aggregate, thats the "stone and sand : mix"..assuming that that is whats used in the U.S as well, to little "Dust" : and it certainly will crumble and too much and it cracks which it also does : if it drys to quickly before the chemical reaction can be completed,,,much : like mixing a Christmas cake I suppose, it has to be just right !.....cant : comment on what resource to law you have of course......

: Alan

--

Issue 1 - Concrete standards - if the concrete came from a ready-mix plant, the contractor should have specified the mix - typically

Issue 2 - law suits - most people are not mentioning that this depends on the state law. In Texas, contractors are almost liability proof as long as they are willing to go out of business and later start a new business under a different name. I have no idea about Arizona. I can also tell you that in Texas, a decent real-estate lawyer is about $180/hr. Telling your story might end up more expensive than the damage. Certainly try the small claims court if nothing else works. ...but don't be surprised if you aren't able to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Jeff

Penny Wise, Pound Foolish. Your own greed got the better part of you. Next time you'll know why you're paying more for a licensed contractor.