Yep. Woke up in the morning. Some kitchen and adjacent living room lights wouldn't go on. All I can tell at the moment are the lights (three ceiling lights, each with switches).
I presume there are some outlets on it too, but I haven't checked yet.
Nothing is plugged into any of the nearby outlets.
It has three positions.
I found it in the trip (middle, sort of) position.
It easily stays in the off position.
It won't get into the on position - immediate swings to trip.
Nope. It's a section of the kitchen next to the dining room. I will dig up my outlet tester plug, and check a few of the nearby outlets, but all the lights are ceiling lights and all are currently switched (and the switches are all off).
At least four built-in lights. All switched. Dunno how many (if any) outlets yet. Will need to test around with a spare desk lamp. Can't find my damn Fluke DMM. WHere did I put that thing? (Haven't used it in a couple of years.)
Yes. I want ideas to debug. I think I have enough to start.
Check the outlets for power.
Check the breaker in my hands that it switches.
Switch the breaker with another breaker.
Pull the affected switches and outlets & disconnect black lead (Some are 3-way so I'll be expecting a red lead maybe.)
Same as anyone else I would think.
I've wire-nutted replacement outlets a half dozen times. I've replaced a circuit breaker (220V for AC) only once. I put in a 3-way ceiling light once (put a box in the attic and dropped the wires down from between the wall to get to the switch).
For tools I have the basic yellow plug 3-light outlet tester. I have a red neon-light probe dumb tester. I can't find my Fluke DMM (but it's overkill usually).
I can "afford" to waste my money on an electrician, but, I don't really have the money to spare. Plus, I'm only lacking in my debugging skills. Once I know what the problem is, I don't think the "fix" will be difficult.
It's figuring out a strategy for finding the problem that I am asking help with - and - I think you boys gave me a pretty good start because I wasn't sure which way to go first since the stuff is all "hidden" in the walls.
Hmmm... I think modern homes tend to keep the kitchen circuits separate from other rooms. Kitchen is the big pig when it comes to electricity usage.
I'm not trying to be a stickler but want to make sure of your use of the word "immediately". Does the switch make *any* attempt to stay in the ON position? A short/overload on the circuit will cause the breaker to "trip" *AS* you are trying to turn it on! I.e., it will never really get into the ON position before you feel it going limp under your fingers.
If, instead, it tries to catch but trips a second or two later, that's a slightly different story.
And, it's NOT a GFCI circuit? And, it's a 120V line?
Is the breaker a single breaker? Or, a "dual" (though NOT 220V)?
I'm not really interested in the actual numbers. Rather, just wanting to make sure you've not overlooked an outlet or a switch someplace that *should* be part of the same branch circuit. E.g., we have two switches to control the overhead lights in the kitchen -- both in the same Jbox (one does the lights over the sink, the other does the rest). It would be highly unlikely that encountering a similar setup would have those switches on different circuits.
With the breaker TRIPPED (i.e., OFF), verify there is NO power at any of the outlets or light fixtures. If there is power, then either you've picked the wrong outlet *or* there may be a short to the other hot leg that is now feeding through (because the breaker on the first hot leg has tripped -- before the breaker on that other hot leg).
[This is highly unlikely. But, stresses the fact that you are now operating in an unusual situation so your assumptions always need to be suspect --- especially if your safety is at risk. If the circuit IS off, then it doesn't hurt to verify! :> ]
*Smell* each outlet/fixture. And look for any signs of burning or melting (metal can melt/"pit" when a short draws an arc to that point).
I have a little fixture I made (trivial) that lets me hook my DMM to a NEMA *plug*. So, I can just plug the thing into outlets and check for voltage -- without having to poke probes into the receptacle and *hope* I touch the mating blades inside. For light fixtures, I use a screw-in adapter: into which I plug this other DMM adapter. Again, it makes it easier than trying to poke around with bare probe tips and possibly shorting out the socket and drawing an arc, etc. (imagine being startled by same and slipping off a ladder!)
[if you want to be pedantic, you'd now remove the breaker]
In what follows, recall that neutral and ground are essentially the same point, electrically. But, a short on neutral will appear differently than a short on ground -- if you are just looking at neutral and hot (instead of ground and hot).
Having identified all of the outlets and fixtures that are on the circuit and knowing there is NO potential anywhere, you can now flip the DMM to the ohms scale and SURVEY the resistance between hot and neutral at each receptacle (no need to check both receptacles in a duplex outlet) and light fixture. Move to the most sensitive scale as you are looking for something in the
10 ohm or less range (for a short).
Keep in mind that wire has resistance. E.g., 100 ft of #12AWG (for a 20A circuit) is ~0.16 ohms; #14AWG is ~0.25 ohms. Any "short" (which may be a dead short -- 0 ohms -- or a partial short (a few ohms) will appear to be LESS of a short the farther away you measure (because you will be ADDING the resistance of the wire between your measurement point and the actual location of the short TO the resistance of the actual short!)
A C B
--------------------------------------------+----------------- X
Short (at C) would appear as "X" ohms. When measured at B, it would appear as X plus twice the resistance of the wire from B to C (cuz you have to travel DOWN one wire and then back UP the other... twice the distance!)
OTOH, when measured at A, the same reasoning shows how the measurement will be higher -- more wire involved!
[You need a reasonably good meter (fluke will be fine) AND a solid connection to the conductors -- like the plug I described]
By noting what the *exact* readings are at each point, you have a better chance of sorting out where it MIGHT be. (if the short is IN a Jbox, then you'll probably see damn close to 0.000 ohms, there!)
Having verified that there is a short (low ohm connection when none is expected), you now have to isolate it. The above can help narrow it down to a range of "devices" (outlets/switches/fixtures). But, you'll eventually need to open up some Jboxes to see for sure.
Eyes can spot burnt areas and loose wires pretty easily! Note that most devices have bare screw heads on each side. So, if the device has shifted position, it can bump into something that it shouldn't -- like the receptacle immediately adjacent, or the metal Jbox, etc.
Some common sense will help you decide how the wire was
*probably* strung. I.e., if two Jboxes are close by, then the wire probably goes from one to the other -- before heading across the room to some other Jbox. But, there are no guarantees :>
Once you have isolated a section of wire (which might be the entire circuit, if you are unlucky), you can save yourself some trouble by approaching the problem of breaking it into smaller segments logically.
I.e., instead of isolating the receptacle at outlet #1 and retesting the balance of the circuit; then moving on to isolate outlet #2, and #3, and #4, etc. you can go to the outlet in the "middle" (take a guess) of the circuit and break the circuit at that point. Now, you have half of the circuit going off to the "left" and the other half going off to the "right".
If the left half shows a short -- but the right doesn't -- then you now know the short is in the *left* half of the circuit. Likewise, if the right shows a short but not the left, then you know it's in the right half. So, you only have to check HALF of the outlets.
Given the left/right half, you can now break *it* somewhere near the middle to eliminate half of *those*. Etc. A bit of thought will show that this will, on average, reduce the number of "breaks" that you have to make to isolate the short.
You may encounter two issues that will complicate things.
First, some folks use "back stab" devices. These are a labor saver in that you simply strip the wire and then jam it into a hole in the back of the device (switch/receptacle). It magically makes connection.
But, it's a ratchet sort of action -- tugging on the wire won't remove it! You need to operate a "catch" that releases the "ratchet" (usually by slipping a cabinet tip screwdriver into a little slot/hole).
[These things should be outlawed! :< ]
The other has to do with how the circuit is "daisy chained" on to the next device (Jbox) in the circuit. Receptacles tend to have a pair of screw terminals on each side -- two for the hot and two for the neutral. These are bonded together electrically with a metal bridge (it is fairly obvious).
The natural inclination is to connect the "incoming" wires to one set of terminals (one hot and one neutral) and the "outgoing" wires to the other set. This effectively ties the incoming to the outgoing AT the receptacle.
Instead, you might find the incoming tied directly to the outgoing with a wire nut. Then, a short "pigtail" connects the wire nut to the receptacle. In this way, the receptacle is not required for the circuit to continue on to the next device!
As such, removing the wire from the receptacle will just isolate the receptacle from the circuit. It will *not* "break" the circuit at that point!
OK. So, you're probably comfortable working *in* the panel.
See my comments re: measuring wire resistance...
The problem with the "simple" testers is they don't show you anything other than "working properly" or "working WRONGLY (in a bigtime way)".
Understood. I just get nervous suggesting folks go poking around in a load/meter center or Jboxes. Note that you are operating in an "abnormal" situation; so, what you can EXPECT is no longer something that you can safely ASSUME.
Think about what *could* have gone wrong. E.g., if you are frequently abusing a particular outlet, then it has seen more mechanical wear and tear than an outlet that is NEVER used, etc.
What does label on the breaker say? Bedroom 1, kitchen, kitchen counter top, exterior front outlet, garage, etc.? They have to be specific. If not you disconnect the hot wire from the breaker and measure to check if there is short downstream(load side) I assume you know all the basic safety measures while working on the electricity. It can be as simple as bad circuit breaker....
Looks like it is one of the "tandem" style, where you have 2 independent breakers in one "space" in the panel. Generally not used until the panel runs out of spaces.
I don't know about in the USA, but in Canada the main breaker has to be protected by a sheild that does not come off when the main panel cover is removed and NOTHING is alowed to be "live" in the main panel area with the main disconnect (main breaker) disconnected (turned off) With the main breaker off you would need to be VERY inventive to find a way to electrocute yourself.
This is, of course, assuming it is a relatively current panel.
I've been looking for information on this - but I am almost sure it was a requirement in ontario in '96
I know a lot of american panels were not legal for use in Ontario because they did not have the separation - and I know FOR SURE it is in code now, because even a non current carrying conductor cannot transit between the "mains" and "load" side of the panel and pass. (the ground wire for the voltage sensing device that tells when the power comes back on when running on generator was not allowed to be run out to the "load" side by my inspector last month)
.. sorry for hi-jacking the thread .. Clare : Is your " grid power ON " alert device audible ?
- or something more sophisticated - for generator auto-start/auto-stop ? I've been wanting to install a simple alert device - < I presently rely on my neighbour to phone me > Ideally - something non-invasive - so I wouldn't need a dis-connect and inspection. I'm < dreaming of > a little device that I simply hang on the incoming at my basement panel, when I'm on generator -
- remove it when I disconnect the genny -
- it alerts when sensing AC potential in the conductor. A loud audible alert is best. Any helpful ideas are welcome. John T.
The OP dont know ANYTHING about electrical, PERIOD. He should not be touching any of it. He's going to electrocute himself, or start a fire, or kill someone else.
I'm an avid supporter of DIY, but a person has to have some knowledge of stuff, (especially electrical). After reading what this OP is posting, he should not touch anything electrical. Just call an electrician and be done with it. It's far better to pay a couple hundred dollars to a pro, than die or cause a fire!
Because some of us know what we're doing. I'm always willing to assist others on this NG, but electricity can KILL. I read between the lines, and I can "read" their skill level, and I am not going to assist someone with killing themselves. This OP is clueless about basic electricity and should not be touching any wiring, PERIOD!
I agree, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN !
If he was trying to replace a door, but showed the same lack of basic carpentry skills, I'd still be willing to assist, because doors dont kill people if they make a slight mistake.
Also some of you who are in a position to help, start out with a step by step questions to narrow down the cause of issue(s). Rather than asking to do this and that right off the bat.
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