Yeah.. that's kinda what I'm after. On the interior it comes down to
one-coat coverage. I don't like to paint, and so want the least
amount of labor to get a good job.
For the exterior -- again assuming I don't like to paint (and prep
properly), if I hire it done, I want maximum lifespan.
Ahhh....this is the crux of the matter. I absolutely HATE the prep for
any kind of painting, but I am obsessive about doing it right because I
don't want to do it again for a long time. I used Sears paint many
years ago...my first interior paint job...and it was awful. Sears had
several price ranges for interior latex, and I used a better one. I
probably selected Ben Moore for my next paint job because the only local
paint store carried it. Been a Ben Moore fan ever since. My present
kitchen was painted with B.M. alkyd semi-gloss about 6 years ago. Alkyd
is all that I use for kitchen, bath or for wood trim. I had reason to
write a message on the kitchen wall couple of years ago with a Sharpie
permanent marker...to make a very definite point :o)....hubby was able
to remove it with elbow grease and a 3M scrubber. Can't see that it was
ever there :o)
One kitchen I painted with B.M. looked just fine after 13 years, in
spite of rough cleaning...smoky, no exhaust fan. Unless you repaint
every couple of years just to change color, then good paint is well
worth the price, IMO. But when a paint job fails, 99% of the time it is
probably due to external damage or poor prep. Cheap paint is more
difficult to cover with, more difficult to apply.
I've read that for exterior appl. to wood, the wood should be painted on
all sides and ends .. I'm sure it is rarely done, but sealing up end
grain would probably avoid most peeling problems for exterior paint.
Caulk joints after priming to avoid intrusion and moisture getting to
end grain or unpainted surface.
The 1 hour dry time troubles me more than the $55/gallon.
My painting problem has always been this:
If I use too little paint, it doesn't cover in one coat.
If I try to cover in one coat by using more paint, it drips, runs and
I'm resigned to using 2 coats since it's easier than trying to fix the
drips, runs and sags.
Now, at $55 a gallon, I would need some strong assurances that the
paint would cover in one coat, even with my amateurish skills, since
the stated one hour dry time is not going to give me *any* time to fix
the drips, runs and sags.
That's why I can't use products like B-I-N Shellac based primer. It
dries too fast for me to fix my mistakes.
Folks go overboard on BIN and Zinsser brands, without understanding the
specifics of each primer. BIN shellac is great, but for very specific
stain-blocking purposes. Other companies make equally good primers for
stain blocking. BIN shellac also comes in a spray can, but it is highly
flammable. Wonderful stain blocker but requires special caution. I
used it on a kitchen ceiling, warm night, windows open. When I filled
the kitchen with spray mist, I remembered I had forgotten to shut off
the pilot on the gas range! Eek! Crawled under the tarp real quick to
shut off the pilot, after briefly considering evacuating the house :o)
BIN and Zinsser labels are reliable...I've used Zinsser Bullseye
water-based primer on Formica...worked great, still holding up fine.
That one, as I recall, is on the thick side, as well. A little sanding
prior to painting.
For exterior paints - go name brand - Columbia, Behr, Sherwin Williams,
Pittsburgh... I used a local brand for exterior once - it was pealing by
Interior, be sure to shop the same place. I don't do Wal Mart, with
turn over you never know what you are going to get. Brand is less
as it does not get the wear and tear of the exterior.
Re: the brush cleaning.
It was a brand new Purdy 2.5" angled XL Glide.
After painting for at most 2 hours with the "green" Behr interior, and
then washing with warm/hot water and soap, there were strands on the
brush that were encased in the dried paint and it would not come
off. Now -- I'm not saying that the brush was "gunked up" so bad
that it's not useable. I was just expecting that I could remove ALL
signs of paint and see a clean brush. But there are traces of "green"
and now "white" paint on the bristles. My wife used my last Purdy..
and left it soaking in yellow Behr for hours. She also angled the
brush backwards and curved the angled tip. We scrubbed it with about
everything in the shop, and got it back to useable -- but the bristles
are permanently curved and it's worthless for a cut-in brush. It's a
great general purpose slap-it-on brush. I never thought much about it
-- until now and started to think that the Behr paint might be drying
so rapidly that it seals to the bristles well before they can be
washed out. With the new brush I dipped it into water before the
paint. I generally try to only get the brush 1/2-way into the
paint. I try to keep it to 1/3rd.
This started out as a "which is best" primer discussion. At least in
my case, I could not find a strong argument for using the more
expensive primers except maybe the PPG speed-hide if the desire is one
coat and no topcoat coverage. That's likely going to be a rare
case. For me, though, that could possibly work for my office/shop
ceiling. Just lay down the PPG primer and be done. If I can do
that, then for $18 and my time to put it on ONCE, it's a good
solution. But if I have to add a topcoat -- albeit a ceiling paint,
then I may as well go with the $12 Behr primer.
The other consideration for the DIYer -- is store hours. HD (Behr)
and Lowes (Valspar) are open when the paint stores are not. Again --
I know -- it's maybe not the optimum "paint" solution, but for the
DIYer, there are other factors that are more significant -- or so it
would seem. Maybe I should say so long as the paint stays on the
walls, wears OK, and can be repainted with no ill-effects. Of course
that's going to take 10+ years to conclude.
I called the store that sold me the PPG speed-hide. Their strong
recommendation is to top-coat. They offered Coronado ceiling paint
for $13/gallon. Behr at HD is 20/gal or 25/2gals. But that gets back
to my point about topcoating. So the speed-hide sealer was $18/gal
and the Behr primer is $12/gal (or $55 for 5 gal). If I topcoat,
then I don't see a strong argument for the more expensive primer.
I think I will try to water-down the Behr a bit and see if that helps.
I haven't followed your entire thread, so perhaps have missed some
points. I would not leave a primer as a final finish unless appearance
was of no concern. But, then, why bother in the first place? You don't
get the same protection and ease of cleaning with primer only in most
cases. The high-hide may save you a coat of paint, so the price may not
be that important.
I'd have to agree with Nate here. Even the finest Kilz colors that
guarantee one coat coverage, usually take two coats to make it right.
Now if you're putting yuppie beige over yuppie beige , probably a one
coat could be possible.
Personally, I find that to be even *harder* to do, unless I have good
lighting in the room that I'm working on - not the paint's fault, but
when the colors are close, it's easy to have a few holidays that you
don't notice until you've already cleaned your roller!
..been awhile since I posted my OP
I finally proceeded with a trial, albeit anything but scientific.
I bought Behr primer, at 11.99/can, SW Drywall primer at 21.99 (or
maybe it was 19.99)/can, and PPG Speed Hide primer at 19.99 less 10%
discount (17.99/can), Kilz general purpose primer at 11-something a
can. All cans are 1 gal buckets.
I used them mostly on unprimed drywall. I also used them on some bare
pine. I used a Purdy brush and Shur-Line rollers. The surface temp
was 50-60. The dry-time temp was 60-65. I'm painting a 24x12x8h room
(office) in my detached garage/shop. I'm also painting the rest
(24x24x8h) when temps warm. I did lay down some Kilz in the corners
and about 12 foot of one wall.
I did not use the SW on a large area of drywall. It was the last one
used, and the drywall I have remaining is too cold to prime at this
time. I only used it on some bare pine window trim.
Here is my random thoughts and perceptions..
Behr is the white-est and thinest. The tape and mud work are very
visible once it dries (and during application). It went on well with
a brush. The Kilz took a bit more effort to apply with the brush.
PPG is the least white but clearly thickest -- it nearly hides out the
tape and mud work. It applies well with a brush -- a bit less effort
than the Kilz, and again, much thicker than the Behr.
Kilz is somewhere between Behr and PPG, but seems to leave a slightly
better finish than Behr.
I topcoated with some 2-4 year-old Behr Prem Plus mid-tone green
paint. On the Behr primed wall, the sheen seems a bit glossier than
the PPG primed wall. The difference on the Kilz primed wall is
The PPG maybe gives a slightly more uniform and consistent look and
feel -- this is highy subjective however.
The topcoat will need a 2nd coat -- or at least some roller touchup to
The SW is thinner than the PPG, a bit thicker than Behr.
The SW has a very unique and distinctive odor.
The Behr has an amonia odor.
I cannot really pick a clear winner. If I was tempted to chose one
for a single coat coverage -- say for my ceiling and it would not be
topcoated, I would clearly chose PPG. It just about hides the tape
seems. I'm not sure if the PPG should even be used for a one-coat
however. If not, then this point is mute. But, I do plan to buy
another gallon of PPG and finish my ceiling with it -- and possibly
just call the ceiling done. I do not find any points about topcoating
on the PPG container. On the SW it clearly states it should be
topcoated. Once a topcoat - even just one coat is applied, it's hard
to find any real differences. This pretty much leads me to the
conclusion, that the primer may as well just be of the same brand as
the topcoat and forget about all other factors. The primer, assuming
there is some design behind it, is probably most effective with a
paint from the same company. It also sort of leads me to seriously
consider that for existing paint, the better choice may be one from
the same company. In otherwords -- if my house is painted with BM on
the exterior, maybe it's best to use BM again for future painting.
For interior I would not worry about it.
Looking at this differently -- I don't see a strong correlation
between price and final result. While I've yet to give the SW a fair
shot, it's going to be really hard to justify $20/gal when the Behr/
Kilz are $12/gal, and the PPG at $18/gal clearly does hide much
better. If I needed the hide, the PPG wins, but on a topcoat or two-
topcoat scenario, then the less costly Behr/Kilz options seem pretty
reasonable. If I had easy access to Kilz paint, then maybe I'd opt
for the Kilz primer. If the WalMart brand paint is really Kilz, then
I guess I do, otherwise, Behr, Valspar, PPG, SW are more widely
available to me.
For the average DIY-er, I cannot overwhelmingly see paying 2x for SW
or even PPG. Maybe if I was doing this daily or even monthly, I
could find a better agrument for a more expensive paint. As it is --
when painting once or twice a year, the bigger issues tend to be
moving around furniture, prep, and the struggles with cutting-in, or
taping off. To that end I picked up a $3 Shur-Line pad with 2
rollers that claims to be good for trim. My initial impression is
that it shows promise. Cutting-in with a brush along door/window trim
is never crisp enough for me. I get better each time, but it's a
painstaking job and when I do this only once a year, it takes me hours
This is clearly not addressing the longevity of the primer or paint
job. But then again, for interior, I'm not convinced it's going to
make any difference. I'd just buy the top line of paint from
whichever brand I chose. I'd used a gloss or semi-gloss on trim
(personally I like real wood anyway) -- and flat or eggshell. My
guess is that after 5 years the paint will look very good and that in
10 years it will still look good. And in 10-15 it's going to be
Sidenote -- the Behr topcoat paint really sticks to my brush. It was
a brand new Purdy and I cannot get the brush like-new clean after
scrubbing with soap and water for 30 minutes. I only painted about 2
hours max with the brush. Maybe that's a strong point for the paint,
but it really stinks that I cannot get my brush clean. For this issue
alone -- I could be swayed to another brand ;-)
So -- there ya have it. I'd love to see a 6 sided room - each
painted with specific brand (Behr, Valspar, SW, BM, PPG, Walmart) by
the same painter.
I had a quart of several-year-old (probably 3-7) Behr exterior semi-
gloss white that I brushed onto the window/door trim. Again -- this
stuff is very thick. It says dries to touch in 2 hours, but it was
drying to touch in 10 minutes. Again -- it was impossible with soap
and water to get it off the brush. Much of this is probably my
inexperience, but it's drying way too fast for me to work with,
although it seems to look OK now that it's dried. I took two
approaches -- put it on heavy and rubbed it on light.
My experience w/ Behr exterior (bestest at the time about 5 yrs ago now)
was and remains quite good.
Used about 40 gal ea oil-base primer and latex gloss topcoat white on
barn. Each sprayed and brushed well and covered well. I'd have no
qualms in recommending it or using it again.
It has and is holding up well w/ the exception of a couple of areas that
were especially weathered and apparently we didn't get prep'ed well
enough. It is 90-yr old barn that hadn't been painted in 50 years. The
structure is so large (40x66x14 at corner/nearly 40 to haymow ridge/30
to gambrel roof break line) that despite spending months in sanding and
using oxalic acid it was simply impossible to not have a few places that
didn't get the level of attention they needed. Have seen no place w/
new material that has any adhesion problems whatsoever.
I haven't noticed any particular difficulty in cleaning brushes.
We've been using the Kilz colors for 3 years now. Probably applied
somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 gallons. Brush, roller, and
sprayed. We will not use another. as for the flat, semi, eggshell,
satin bs, that's all subjective to what you like.
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