Back stabbed outlets and Daisy chaining, Christmas tree lamps

[HeyBub]

What did the Army Corps of Engineers insist upon back when all plugs were two pronged? Covering the outlet with a deflated football? At least prominent warning signs? Prayer?

I've heard that rationalization before. Consider:

• What are the chances a plug is only partially inserted? Further, it's inserted enough to make contact with the live terminals inside the fixture but a small amount of the prongs are visible.

• What are the odds that something is dropped where it will hit this mal-inserted plug.

• Now what are the chances that this dropped something is a) Conductive, and b) Thin enough to fit in the gap

• Assuming all of the above probabilities come to pass, so what? The intruding bit of metal will spark and sputter and it will either explode out of the socket or the breaker will flip.

I suggest, based on the odds, that anything deleterious happening because the ground plug is beneath the hot/neutral has never happened in the history of the world.

[The Daring Dufas]

Two pronged? What makes you think that in the 1980's all 120vac plugs were two pronged? I have to admit that the Core of Engineers engineers could be stricter than municipal engineering departments but I've had the local city inspector insist that 120vac receptacles be installed with the ground hole at the top. o_O

TDD

[JIMMIE]

When one of my friends had their home built all the outlets were ground down. They had to be turned ground up so the little face didnt frighten the kids.

Jimmie

[krw]

IBM, at least the locations I worked in, were the same way. Ground-up was the standard, for the reasons given here. If the outlet was sideways it was neutral-up.

[HeyBub]

In the 1930s thru at least 1950, two prongs were all there were. I grew up in a house that had only two-prong outlets. I've got stuff that has only two prongs.

So what if the city inspector demanded this or that. Beat him about the head and shoulders and he'll straighten up. Works every time.

[Stormin Mormon]

Hey, that's bad advice. God, and Mayan monkeys appeared to me in dreams, and told me that the ground hole has to be on top, in case something falls along the wall, and shorts the two flat blades.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

Trick: Are all your original outlets ground-plugs pointing in the same direction? Either up or down? As you replace or improve on them, reverse the orientation - if the ground plug was up, rotate the outlet so the ground plug is down. Or vice-versa.

Then, as you progress with the project, you can tell immediately what needs fixing.

Pay no attention to those who say God told them that a certain orientation was righteous and the other sinful. Or that a Mayan monkey spoke to them in a dream and relayed the straight skinny.

[Stormin Mormon]

Actually, my Dad had this happen to him. He was a teen, and running a long wire antenna in his parents cellar. For some reason, he dropped the wire in front of electrical socket. It burned about half way through the blades of the plug before the fuese blew. True story.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

I've heard that rationalization before. Consider:

• What are the chances a plug is only partially inserted? Further, it's inserted enough to make contact with the live terminals inside the fixture but a small amount of the prongs are visible.

• What are the odds that something is dropped where it will hit this mal-inserted plug.

• Now what are the chances that this dropped something is a) Conductive, and b) Thin enough to fit in the gap

• Assuming all of the above probabilities come to pass, so what? The intruding bit of metal will spark and sputter and it will either explode out of the socket or the breaker will flip.

I suggest, based on the odds, that anything deleterious happening because the ground plug is beneath the hot/neutral has never happened in the history of the world.

[Stormin Mormon]

Now they look like Japanese who have been shot in the forehead?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

When one of my friends had their home built all the outlets were ground down. They had to be turned ground up so the little face didnt frighten the kids.

Jimmie

[The Daring Dufas]

I happen to be friendly with them to the point where the one's I know will sign off on my work without much scrutiny because they know I do it right. The guys who argue with the inspectors are the guys who wind up having to rip things out and start over. I too grew up in older homes in the 50's and even got electrical shocks from those vintage radio and record players with a metal chassis having non-polarized plugs inserted into the two pronged outlets. I never have problems with building inspectors because I treat them with respect and if they tell me something that I know to be wrong, I'll ask them in a non confrontational way to show me in the code book. "Gee Inspector Bob, I must have misunderstood that part of the code, could you help me understand it? I have my NEC code book right here." ^_^

TDD

[Art Todesco]

Ya, I've sort of decided to do the pigtail thing. I'll probably use the original outlets as they do have screws too and are not that bad quality. However, I think the electrician and drywall guy kind of screwed up in several areas. The plaster ears on the outlet in a few places, don't grab the drywall, and thus, when you push a plug into the socket, it moves inward a bid. With plastic plates, the plate will sometimes crack next to the screw. Ok, on my soapbox; these newly required outlets which close the holes are really a royal pain. I guess I should bite the bullet and replace them with the non-blocking ones while doing the rewire. But, I have changed a few where we are constantly plugging and unplugging; the old styles are soooooo much nicer. Now that I've hijacked my own thread, I'll proliferate another sub-thread.

On ground up or ground down ... this house was totally ground down, i.e. "the face". I have right angle plugs with both orientations! I even have one right angle plug that where the cord comes off at a 45 degree angle! So, I turned the one where I plug the Christmas tree. It's a heavy (14 gauge), flat air conditioner extension cord wired directly to an X10 outlet in an outlet box on the train board below the tree. Now this thread has gone fully 360 as I have looped back to the original problem which showed up due to the large number of C7 lamps on the Christmas tree.

[Art Todesco]

Well, I didn't see anything which led me to believe there was a workmanship problem. However, as I stated previously, I eliminated 4 volts of drop, due to the back stab outlets. And, this only involved 3 outlets! Imagine what would happen at the end of a long run with these things.

[RBM]

I sympathize about the dead front receptacles. This is typical 1st generation stuff. You can shim the receptacle screws to prevent the plate breaking, or you can also buy white painted metal plates. They're almost identical to the plastic ones, and they hold the outlet rigid

[Sam E]

On 12/31/2011 05:11 PM, HeyBub wrote: [snip]

According to the Preservers' original manual, outlets should be installed with the ground sideways, so it's in front according to planetary rotation. This makes it consistent with the adiledicnander field and prevents unwanted hyperspatial vortex formation.

[HeyBub]

Sam E" [snip]

Is that dictum reversed for the Southern Hemisphere?

[Stormin Mormon]

Only if gravity pushes away from the planet.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

Is that dictum reversed for the Southern Hemisphere?

[clare]

I had my nice 1 inch wide stanley tape measure spit fire from a plug one day when measuring behind a desk. I didn't feel anything, but sparks flew, it stunk, and my tape was never the same again!!

[The Daring Dufas]

An electrical engineer and really nice guy I knew years ago was killed when he opened the cabinet to some switch gear energized with 4,160 VAC because the top locking rod slipped out of its guide and fell into the gear, the resulting explosion took him out. :-(

TDD

[jw]

Your electrician back stabbed you twice. First on your outlets, then he stabbed YOU in the back with a knife when he had the nerve to bill you for this crappy work.

Real electricians dont use backstab wiring.

[bud--]

I heard a guy who was a "field engineer" for a large manufacturer (mighta been Westinghouse) describe having a customer wanting a starter unit for an open space in a 480V motor control center. He measured the space with a steel tape and next thing he knew he was on the floor across the room. That was good - otherwise he likely would have been dead.

OSHA has discovered arc-flash and companies better have procedures for protection - in both cases likely an arc-flash suit or maybe access would not have even been allowed. The NEC requires marking of possible energy on some new apparatus. This has to be calculated. It is the basis for arc-flash protection. I have seen labels that are "no approach allowed".

[The Daring Dufas]

I heard of another electrical engineer who was killed when he used a common pencil to probe a circuit in some 4160 switch gear. Darwin explained to him that graphite, a form of carbon, conducts electricity rather well. o_O

TDD