Am I grounded? Electrically speaking.

Reply to
w_tom
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Reply to
w_tom

The National Electrical Code uses the term "grounded conductor" (not "ground") for the neutral, and "grounding conductor" for the green or bare safety ground wire.

Reply to
Steve Dunbar

According to zxcvbob :

Both the NEC and CEC prohibit this.

You can make a white wire "hot" by marking it (with tape or nail polish), but you can't make a black or red wire into a ground or neutral.

Strange, but true.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

??? Large gauge wires are only available in black and are routinely (in Minnesota, anyway) taped white for grounded service entrance conductors. The local inspector requires that the grounded conductor be marked. I realize that service wires might be different than circuit wires, but where are you gonna get white #6 wire? Or even #8?

Not arguing, just confused. (for old work I'd tape it green even if it was a technical violation)

Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

According to Rob :

Note that:

1) blocking the third pin is illegal in the NEC. This is pretty stale advice even for the CEC. I don't think it was ever required. In the NEC, they require you to put labels on GFCI-protected 3 prong outlets that only have 2 wires. 2) GFCI's don't "make a ground". Note in particular, DO NOT interconnect the ground prongs of outlets downstream of a two-wire GFCI. 3) copper pipe grounding is bad advice generally speaking, and will usually be in violation of code. The inspector _may_ have had his reasons for your situation _specifically_, but it should never be generally recommended. In many situations it's hideously dangerous.
Reply to
Chris Lewis

200-6 of the NEC is very explicit in requiring that conductors No. 6 or smaller be "identified" (marked as neutral) by a "continuous outer finish" for their entire length. There are some exceptions, but none would apply here.

See:

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for more detail.

It's also mentioned in the electrical wiring faq (I think) where it talks about marking white wires black.

I probably would too, and an inspector would probably okay it as well, if it meets a "complying with the code imposes undue hardship" thinking that they usually do.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to Rob :

I _am_ in Ontario.

When was this?

Yes, obviously the water pipes would be joined. But these days, there's a very good chance that it's NOT all electrically conductive.

With the advent and popularity of plastic water pipe, and the fact that many new homes are on plastic main water pipes too, the plumbing system is no longer considered a reliable ground generally.

Both the NEC and CEC have moved away from using water mains as ground electrodes. You _still_ have to connect the water pipe _to_ ground (if it's metallic), but that's to protect you from getting shocks from the plumbing, not to use the plumbing as a grounding conductor.

The CEC states very clearly now that you shouldn't use the the plumbing system as a grounding conductor, except in special situations requiring the plumbing to be tested for electrical conductivity.

An ohmmeter is in inadequate test. It doesn't prove that the plumbing has enough ampacity to push fault current - it could be a stray whisker through a rotting dialectric connector. For that, you need to test under load. See the electrical wiring FAQ.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

The grounding wire might carry current if there is a leak and no GFCI to catch it. Grounding to a cold water pipe is OK as a last resort, but can be a hazard later to the plumber unlucky enough to cut the pipe somewhere between your ground clamp and the water meter. I've also heard (but don't necessarily believe) it can cause the pipe to corrode and eventually leak. Why take a chance?

In this case, I would replace the outlets with ungrounded replacement outlets and GFCI's in the bathroom, kitchen, etc. Or run a ground wire as best you can all the way back to an electrical panel.

I have lots of ungrounded outlets in my 50 y.o. house. I wanted at least one grounded outlet in every room, so I ran green wires through the wall cavities back to the service panel and fastened them to the service grounding conductor with a big split-bolt connector.

Best regards, Bob

Rob wrote:

Reply to
zxcvbob

Replying to my own message just to clarify something -- I fastened the ends of the green wires to the big ground-ING conductor running from the panel to the water meter -- the house's primary equipment ground. Not the service ground-ED conductor (the big neutral wire.)

Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

Although the ground may exist at the time of the wiring installaytion, there is an additional and serious danger that plastic pipe could be added later - maybe even decades later - and an extremely dangerous situation created as a result.

BB

Reply to
BinaryBillTheSailor

Super. That's what I thought. Just was not sure if it is to code. There must be a way to reuse all those wires in all the buildings in the world. Problem solved. Thanks

Chantecleer

Reply to
Chantecleer

If you don't mind, I need some clarification.

An 8 foot 5/8 copper rod is in the ground and is connected to the water line. Then, it is grounded to the Main breaker box.

In the garage, the Hot and Cold and Gas pipes are bonded together with #8 solid copper wire by the water heater.

First off - I'll install a GFCI - no matter what. And then:

#1 I should run 5'of solid copper groundwire to the outlet I had converted , from the pipes. (Shielded, or unshielded is OK?)

#2 I should use the RED wire that is not used, and mark it with green tape, then connect to the Neutral ground strip in the main breaker box and mark it green as well.

#3 Just use the two wires on the GFCI and forget the green ground.

#4 Run a new green wire back to the main breaker. (Like no way.)

#5 Other.

Can you clarify what your choice would be, and especially, which one of them choices are to Code, and which are not. My county is adhering to the

1996 NEC. I had just purchased the book on Amazon for the future.

Thanks for your time.

Chantecleer

Reply to
Chantecleer

Chris L. pointed out that it is not to code for wires smaller than [something huge I don't remember]. But in a follow-up he agreed that it might be the way to go here anyway, and there's a good chance the inspector would OK it.

Best regards, Bob

Reply to
zxcvbob

I was a bit sloppy in my terms using "ground" instead of "grounded." The NEC has and probably still calls the wire that goes which serves to replace the earth a "grounded" wire. This grounded wire is white. Some (maybe a lot of) people call it the neutral, but that's gives a false impression since in AC since current flows both ways. The wire that you call a safety ground is the "grounding" wire. I don't have a current NEC so maybe these terms have changed.

If you attach a 12/3 romex at the breaker box and a receptacle at the other l>

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

Right I was sloppy leaving the "ed" off the end.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

According to Chantecleer :

Strictly speaking:

No longer permitted except in special situations (as in, not unless the inspector says so).

Note that codes do NOT permit gas pipes to be used as grounding conductors.

As the gas pipe is bonded to the water pipes near where you want to do this, the gas pipe will probably carry fault current. Absolute no-no.

Technically illegal according to the 1996 NEC (200-6).

Legal and easiest.

Legal and hard.

I'd probably use #3. #2 if I _really_ needed a ground.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

According to George E. Cawthon :

It is wrong and quite dangerous to use the grounding conductor (ground wire) and the grounded conductor (neutral wire) interchangeably. Yes, they are connected together in the panel but that's irrelevant.

If it were okay to interchange them, there'd not be two of them.

For example: if you have the ground and neutral reversed in an outlet and you have a wiring fault, a single hot-case short in a three prong appliance can make every grounded metal surface on that circuit go live.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

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