20-Volt Li-Ion power tools? -- I don't think so

[Percival P. Cassidy]

I think it was here that I posted a few months back that I had discovered that the allegedly 19.2-Volt "Craftsman" power tools use the same five Li-Ion cells (3.6V per cell) as other manufacturers use in their 18-Volt tools -- 5x3.6=18.

Now I see an ad in the latest Menards (mid-West "home improvement" chain) flyer for "MasterForce" (a store brand, I think) power tools that use a 20-Volt Li-Ion battery.

There is no combination of 3.6-Volt cells that will result in a

19.2-Volt or 20-Volt battery pack -- except, perhaps, if the voltage is measured within a very short time after the charger is disconnected. And if they were using six such cells (which Craftsman isn't), why wouldn't they advertise the tools as 21.6-Volt tools?

I consider this to be false advertising.

Perce

[Jim Elbrecht]

If it *is* 21.6, they are probably protected from *under* stating the value. And some bean counter told them that 20V was a number folks could remember- but 21.6V was hard and might be confused with 1.6 or

11.6 or 'two 1.6v'

Or maybe they have a new magic 4v cell & they're telling the truth. Buy one, test it, and return it if it doesn't 'meet or exceed' manufacturer's claims.

Jim

[EXT]

Just like the Dyson vacuum ads that I see, they always have a feature that seems to grossly exaggerate their ability to defy the laws physics. They may be good but you cannot trust what they say in the ads. For example, the "ball" vacuum, actually uses wheels that have a convex outside to appear to be a ball, a heater fan that can stop hot air from rising, then says it is

20% more efficient than other heater fans, and other ads that promote such claims.

[Smitty Two]

Here you go, I googled this for you. Apparently, it isn't a "20 volt" battery, it's a "20 volt Max" battery.

From this page:

Comes this asterisk reference sentence:

"With respect to 20V MAX*: Maximum initial battery voltage (measured without a workload) is 20 volts. Nominal voltage is 18."

Does that make them lying sacks of shit? In my book, yes.

[krw]

How do you get 12V from LiIon cells? Bosch used to sell 10.8V (3x3.6V cells) batteries but the recent one's I've bought are marked 12V. The only answer is that they're charged from 4.1V, so... Five cells x4.1V is 20.5Volts. Sears is giving you a halfa volt free!

Sears? False advertising? Who wudda thunk!

[The Daring Dufas]

Do you remember years ago when audio amplifiers were advertized with inflated power outputs? It was measured when there was an instantaneous peak in power output when lightning struck the power line. I think The FTC stepped in with rules for the manufacturers of audio gear to put true continuous power output test results in their advertizing. O_o

TDD

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

FWIW, most individuals seem to have an affinity for odd numbers, so 21V would be preferable to 20V

[sms]

You're correct. The reputable companies advertise 5 cell Li-Ion powered power tools as 18V.

I don't know if you'll get any state attorney general to take this case though.

This reminds me of the old days if audio amplifier wattage being measured in IPP (instantaneous peak power) which bore no relation to actual RMS power.

[clare]

Just because a ball is split does not make it any less a ball - there needs to be a way to support it - in Dyson's case - an axle. As for the heater - the high velocity air movement DOES keep the heatdown farther from the heater - and what does the fine print say about the efficiency? It says it is more efficient AT HEATING A ROOM. See test results (not from Dyson) at

I would not call these 2 ads false or misleading.. Like his products, they are a bit "creative" - and although some people (like you) may dissagree technically because you did not read accurately what was said (re efficiency) if it takes 20% less time at full power to heat a room to a preset temperature it IS 20% more efficient at heating the room - even if it does not convert any more watts of input into BTUs.

Now, 20 volt batteries that ARE really just 18 volt lithium batterie IS misleading and false advertizing, because they are weasle-talking - advertizing their product using the same "terms" as everyone else - but with different meaning. Just like "peak air horsepower" vs "horsepower" on vacuums and air compressors. Particularly when finding the "peak air" part is virtually impossible in their ad copy.

[clare]

They are still ALLOWED to advertize "peak power output" but they MUST also include the "rms" or "music power" output.

[Pthirus Pubis]

Buy quality tools like Hilti and you won't have to worry about getting ripped off.

[homeowner]

Holy shit..... You split your balls in half and put axles on them. And now you want to heat your balls!!! That's just insane!

Damn, isn't that kind of a personal problem that someone would not want to post on a public newsgroup. :)

[homeowner]

I recall looking at a boombox at Walmart some years ago that claimed it was 5000 watts. I about shit my pants reading that on the package. I used to run sound for a band, and when they upgraded their sound system, I bought the old one just for home stereo use, because the trade in offer was rediculous, so I got a nice sound system cheap. It's a mixer board and power amp, rated at 300W (per channel) RMS, plus the speakers. I could fill a pretty good size concert hall with that amp and the sound was always clear. The speakers are 15" and big horns, and the power transistors on that amp have huge heat sinks and really can kick butt, as well as pimp out some heat.

So this droid at Walmart was bragging how that boom box could produce

5000W with it's two 6 inch speakers and even run on a half dozen D-cell batteries or something like that. I about laughed my ass off.....

[homeowner]

I'd march right down to that store with an attorney and sue the pants off them. Next week you will own that store......

[The Daring Dufas]

Did somebody mention balls? ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

I sort of wonder if there was a tiny "milli" printed in front of "WATTS"? ^_^

TDD

[Ed Pawlowski]

Reminds me of a story. A guy at work, when he was a teenager went to an Ann & Hope store in Rhode Island. He saw a big boom box on display and just had to try it out. He opened a pack of batteries and loaded it up, put in a heavy metal tape he had, and put it on his shoulder at full volume and walked around the store. The manger shouted to him "Get the hell out of here with that thing." So he did.

[homeowner]

OMG That's too much!!!!!!

[homeowner]

ROTFL ...... I love it!!!!!

[The Daring Dufas]

I wonder if it's a legal way to hunt deer? ^_^

TDD