12 volt Home electrical system?

I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home. Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt system"?

-Jason

Reply to
kellyj00
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16 gauge is not the usual. 14 gauge Romex is the standard minimum.

Most likely you will have to replace the wiring as well as the fixtures and switches. Only a local electrician will be able to inspect the situation and tell you exactly what needs to be done.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

If that home inspector really knew what he was talking about, you might just have some 12 volt AC relays switching the power to those lights. The relays could be controlled by those switches.

The buzzing you hear could be from the relays which may have parts which have gotten worn and a little loose over the years.

Rather unorthodox, but not unheard of.

If you're ignorant in basic electrical apparatus then seek help from someone who can determine if you do have some relays located somewhere, find 'em and see what can be done.

Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.

I think I'm a hotshot about things electrical and electronic, but I'm at a total loss about many other subjects like music and the bible and I was born without a sports gene. I even have trouble remembering which two teams played in the World Series this year.

I have no problem with other people's ignorances, it's stupidity I can't take.

Good luck,

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Wisnia

Do a GOOGLE search for GE RR7 or GE RR9.

This was a very, very popular remote control system in the 60's in upscale homes. A large percentage are still in use today and the owners like them.

The system allowed multiple control of room lighting, that is, switches in many locations could control a single light. Can control outdoor lighting as well. And individual room receptacles too.

All the switch/pushbutton wiring is low voltage, which gave the builder flexibility at low installed cost.

The GE relays are still available from distributors and this company makes replacement models:

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No, you can't directly replace the switches with 120V ones or install dimmers. This would entail some re-wiring.

Jim

Reply to
Speedy Jim

Likely three way switches.

If it is 18 or 20 gauge wire you have some big problems if you are in NA. What country are you located in?

Interesting, I have no guess. Well maybe one. Maybe that 12V idea means he determined that you have a low voltage switching circuit using relays. That would explain the small wires and buzz. That could also be explained by low voltage halogen lamps.

I hope not 16 gauge in NA that should be at least 14. In 1965 it would almost certainly be 14 not 12.

That depends on what that 12V system really is.

Reply to
Joseph Meehan

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to replace the relay.

Reply to
tnom

This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to the AC contacts? Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R
Reply to
RicodJour

The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier). #18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay" Does not compute...

Jim

Reply to
Speedy Jim

Also, because the relay usually latches mechanically, it recovers from a power failure gracefully, i.e.it stays latched if it was on prior to the outage.

Reply to
Art Todesco

And one more thing, I wish my house had these. It makes for real easy automation.

Reply to
Art Todesco

These relays are cylindrical and fit into a 1900 box with the bulk of the cylinder sticking out of the box(the low voltage side). They are a pain in the ass in that you can't just replace switches with dimmers, but the damn things seem to last forever. The "buzz" sound only occurs while a switch is being pressed, then the relay latches into the open or closed position

Reply to
RBM

I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child. I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I still remember the feeling.

Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because it's simple. There's none of that complicated (and weird) stuff often found in human behavior.

In something like 2+2=4 you don't have to consider things like how that first 2 feels about the particular shade of pink the + likes, or the ='s headache and nasty attitude toward addition today. Electrons don't get lazy and block the wires on Sunday, reciting bible verses when asked to move.

Most sports are very boring to watch. It would take some sort of personal involvement to enjoy such.

And stupidity is extremely common.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com posted for all of us...

I hope not it should be 14 gauge min. You should get your wire guages straightened out...

Reply to
Tekkie®

I have never heard of this but it sounds cool. I am guessing that the switches are momentary SPDT and the relays latch either way? That would be incredibly easy to add additional controls to, no need for annoying three way switches etc... if it works as I imagine, why wouldn't it have caught on? Too much cost? wouldn't meet current code? just curious

nate

RBM wrote:

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay. The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power. A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations. Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular. But this was 40 years ago!!

I suppose X10 has supplanted it, but the system is still being promoted in commercial applications where a minicomputer controls the relays. Endless possibilities!

Jim

Reply to
Speedy Jim

I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.

Beachcomber

Reply to
Beachcomber

Try "unfamiliar with"... has a better ring. :)

Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

Never heard of this, but what a great idea. Indeed, wish I had this in my place. I have an idea that in places w/ stricter interpretation of the NEC, that this probably wasn't allowed. At one time, NYC allowed only *eight* #12 wires in 1" emt, and *three* in

1/2"! No romex allowed, etc. I believe they've relaxed some of this, but it gives you an idea of how tight-assed some places can be.
Reply to
Proctologically Violated©®

I didn't know they made SPDT doorbell buttons. Every one I've seen has been SPST. SPST would be enough for controlling relays too.

Reply to
Mark Lloyd

Not true, they were almost always mounted in 1900 boxes at light or outlet locations and the relays come out the same way they go in. You do have to remove the fixture and or outlet first.

Reply to
RBM

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