Goodman/Bryant/Trane/Lennox?

My 5 ton split system heat pump is in need of another $350 repair this summer to replace the defrost board on the condenser. I'm willing to spend the money, but the system is twenty years old, and the evaporator coils on the air handler are rusty and may not last another year. On top of that, the current system is a 10 SEER and was installed in a way that virtually everybody thinks is stupid because the condenser is a good 50 feet from the air handler, and there's probably 75 feet of run line between them.

So I'm thinking about replacing it with something all new that's more efficient. I know that the skill and intelligence of the installer are the most important qualities in determining how well an HVAC system will work, and how reliable it'll be. I'd like some advice in choosing a contractor that will do a good job.

That said, when my compressor blew out last summer, I stupidly paid $2500 to replace just the compressor, instead of biting the bullet then and replacing the whole system. The contractor who did the work offered a 10% discount on that work if I signed up for a $130 annual maintenance agreement (including two checkups), so I signed up and saved more than the cost of the agreement on that repair. The contractor seems okay, but I have to confess, I don't know how to tell. It took them four trips to finally figure out the reason my AC didn't run at night was because the defrost board was bad.

At any rate, my contract gives me a 10% discount off new purchases, too, so I'm thinking about using them for the new system if I can figure out if they're any good. Yesterday, a sales guy came out to our house and ran the numbers for some estimates. I got the fax this morning, and he's proposing Lennox, Bryant, Goodman and Trane systems, with prices ranging from just over $5k for a 13 SEER Bryant to just over $12k for a 15.9 SEER Trane. I'm getting estimates from other contractors, too, but I don't know if they're any good, either.

The guy who came out yesterday said that our current run line is too small in diameter and needs to be replaced if we want anything more efficient than 13 SEER. In addition, because the condenser is so far from the air handler, he's recommending moving the condenser closer to the air handler.

So, I know I'm coming here late, given that I've already got one set of estimates, but I have two questions:

First, how do I tell a good contractor from a yahoo? Is it possible to get a bad installer from an otherwise good contractor? Are there any contractors I should consider or avoid in Mesa, AZ? My wife is the one who's meeting the estimators at our house, and I don't know if she can tell how they're arriving at their numbers.

Second, assuming I found a good contractor and the quality of the installation wasn't an issue, how does a Bryant 16 SEER at just under $7k compare to the much more expensive Trane and Lennox models? Are Trane and Lennox worth that much more? I've gotten the distinct impression from stuff I've read here that many people here consider Goodman to be junk, but that they'd take a well-installed Goodman over a poorly-installed [insert name of favorite brand here] any day.

BTW: I believe the Lennox and Trane estimates involve new run line, but I'm not sure the Bryant or Goodman quotes do.

-- You lookin at me?

Reply to
Travis Bickle
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first of all , call your local wholesalers and ask who they would recommend secondly a quick check of your local bbb might be in order also .

look for the guys who take the time to do heat load and cooling analysis and then inspect the entire system , including ductwork , to make certain all is adequate for the new equipment

higher seers are often money well spent , including the fact that you can now claim a tax credit on the higher efficiency stuff , you need to carefully compare energy costs versus equipment cost and try to amortize the money spent over the lifespan of the equipment . will you see enough energy savings to justify the extra cost , you are the one who will have to do the math .

finally , on the Goodman , Trane Lennox debate , ill probably get flamed , but i see nothing wrong with the newer goodman stuff

their first and second generation 80% furnaces were in a word , junk, but imho, they have tightened up their act , and seem to be turning out better stuff now , ive installed over a hundred in the last four years and have but a handful of warranty failures . the other thing i like about goodman is that they use standard ,readily a vailable honeywell and white rogers controls , lennox and trane do not, what this means to you is that down the road , when you need parts the likelyhood is good that parts for the goodman will be available and generally less expensive , its very hard to get parts for lennox's and trane's as they tend to be very proprietary, for example if your lennox dealer chooses not to keep the four hundred dollar fan control board you need in the middle of july , cuz he doesnt want to keep it in his inventory , then you will be stuck , while it gets ordered and shipped and furthermore , imho, lennox is overengineered overpriced stuff i call them lummox's , atta boy dave !!!!

flame me all you want fellas , but i have never had to go buy a special wrench to change an ignitor on anyhting other than a lennox, ever try to change the spark plugs on a pulse ???????? they seem to try to make it difficult and expensive to repair their stuff

im sure you will get plenty of opinions and sarcasm, but as you already stated, the best value you will get is anyhting thats properly installed ,

good luck

Travis Bickle wrote:

Reply to
The Freon Cowboy

$350 for a defrost board? Must be a Lennox. Evaporator coils are rusty? Aluminum doesn't rust.

75 feet is stupid? Not if properly sized.

Get one that will do a manual J to size the system and a manual D to make sure ducting is adequite.

Intermittant problems *can* be a bitch...

$5 - 12 k??? Is the only difference (besides SEER) the brand of equipment?

Most likely true and *if* the new system is designed right, your lineset length will be ok.

Yahoo is on the internet and normally doesn't show up at your home. Ask for references. AZ, I'd be careful if I was you...

They shouldn't be thousands more... and yes the installation is far more important!

No, but I am looking at your wife. And she's HOT!!!!!!!

Reply to
<kjpro

No flaming from me... :-)

Hehe... like that $2000(?) condenser coil? LOL

Reply to
<kjpro

Author: Date: 07/17/07 16:11:01 Newsgroup: alt.hvac Server: insight - netnews.insightbb.com MessageID:

$350 for a defrost board? Must be a Lennox.

that was my first impression

Evaporator coils are rusty? Aluminum doesn&#39;t rust.

no kj, but the drain pan might be ??????

75 feet is stupid? Not if properly sized.

agreed

Get one that will do a manual J to size the system and a manual D to make sure ducting is adequite.

Intermittant problems *can* be a bitch...

defrost boards , can be a Bitch!!!!! dont see too many hps here in illinois but i remember dicking with a few in fla , not fun

$5 - 12 k??? Is the only difference (besides SEER) the brand of equipment?

very good question, why didnt i think of that ?

Most likely true and *if* the new system is designed right, your lineset length will be ok.

again agreed !!!!!

Yahoo is on the internet and normally doesn&#39;t show up at your home.

unless you call him and ask him out ;-)

Ask for references. AZ, I&#39;d be careful if I was you...

They shouldn&#39;t be thousands more... and yes the installation is far more important!

No, but I am looking at your wife. And she&#39;s HOT!!!!!!!

kj, i want to buy you a beer sometime !!!!!

wrote:

Reply to
The Freon Cowboy

ICP, molded plastic pans don&#39;t rust either. :-)

Had one that the lady said the unit was making noise... got there, everything was fine! I cycled the unit a few times and nothing. Just as I was telling her to try and see when it happens and what is going on with greater details... it started making the sound!

Yep, you guessed it, bad defrost board! :-)

Don&#39;t know, why didn&#39;t you?

Uh ok, are you willing to be the wife this time? LOL

Reply to
<kjpro

Any competent tech could easily jump out the defrost board during summertime.

Reply to
Jeffrey Lebowski

And could still end up with an intermittent problem, so what&#39;s your point?

Reply to
<kjpro

If your going to use the process of elimination for the troubleshooting of heat pumps then the defrost board seems to me a good place to start at least during the summertime.

Reply to
Jeffrey Lebowski

-- good post --

That&#39;s why you make "the &#39;O&#39; face" when you get the bill... (Office Space, a damn funny movie)

Have you done the pressure testing on those beauties. Need to check the Diploma for the engineer that did that one...

It&#39;s Flapper time this fall for me (30 units)... LOL

Goodman will have to fight its way out of the cellar... IMHO

Joseph

Reply to
Joseph

So at least IT is not 20 years old. Why would you want to replace a one year old compressor?

The contractor who did the work offered a 10%

FWIW, that sounds bogus to me. How fast do you think Freon flows through those lines?

Reply to
CJT

I don&#39;t guess... I diagnose!

Reply to
<kjpro

Fine then

Diagnose a bad defrost but have none in stock its easy enough to jumper it out.

The only part I&#39;m still not getting is the part about the $350.

Reply to
Jeffrey Lebowski

Depending on the board, that price is not far from wrong.

Reply to
Noon-Air

ICP, molded plastic pans don&#39;t rust either. :-)

do we know for certain he has an icp molded plastic drain pan ? this is 20 plus years old , icp been molding plastic drain pans that long ?

Had one that the lady said the unit was making noise... got there, everything was fine! I cycled the unit a few times and nothing. Just as I was telling her to try and see when it happens and what is going on with greater details... it started making the sound!

Yep, you guessed it, bad defrost board! :-)

lucky you !!!!

Don&#39;t know, why didn&#39;t you? gee , cant answer that one

Uh ok, are you willing to be the wife this time? LOL

uhhh. not !!!! you&#39;ll pick on anybody wont you ? im not sure how to take that kj, i was starting to think we you and i thought on the same level, but now im not so sure ??????????????

wrote:

Reply to
The Freon Cowboy

I was giving you shit. But yes, ICP has had plastic pans for a very, very long time now.

LMAO

I had to blow you some shit on that one. :-)

Reply to
<kjpro

troubleshooting

Well my opinion here is that any tech residing within the heating dominated climates should always push for retrofit to the ranco demand kit if for no other reason then just for the energy savings alone.

Esp when you consider that the replacement board retails for under $50

Reply to
Jeffrey Lebowski

[...]

First off, thanks to everybody for the advice. I&#39;m going to be digging through the yellow pages tonight to get some wholesalers to call, and yes, I&#39;ll be following up with the BBB, too.

Some quick answers and clarifications:

  • The condenser unit is a Coleman EVCon. It&#39;s about 10 years old. Some research online leads me to believe Coleman is a York brand. I have no idea what make the air handler is.

  • The 0 for the defrost board included installation. When he made the diagnosis on Saturday, the tech warned me that he&#39;d have to find out the price on this particular board, but that the book in his truck showed boards listing from 0 up to almost 0 for just the board. I don&#39;t know what the hourly labor rate is, but I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s at least 0. We got the quote on Monday, and that&#39;s when we asked to get an estimator out to do the quote on a new system.

  • The 75 feet of run line has been universally regarded as stupid because the condenser is so unnecessarily far from the air handler. This is the opinion of everybody who&#39;s looked at my system. I&#39;m no HVAC expert, so I have no opinion. Seems everyone here agrees that 75&#39; doesn&#39;t have to be stupid, and it depends on the specifics of the installation. I can tell you that the run line doesn&#39;t go under my slab. It&#39;s buried underground and runs outside the footprint of the house from the condenser in the back yard, under the wall, through the front yard, underneath a sidewalk that runs from the front door to the driveway, and in through the garage wall.

  • The "rust" on my evaporator coils is probably just corrosion by the wrong name. I did see evidence of corrosion when I looked. To my untrained eye, I thought I saw copper tubing in a gray metal frame. I couldn&#39;t tell whether the gray metal was steel or aluminum. At any rate, the tech who identified the corrosion problem told me he&#39;d seen coils last for years looking worse than mine, but there&#39;s no way to know for sure when it&#39;ll fail.

  • The system is 10 SEER, and my electricity bills in the summertime are at least 0 more than in the winter. I&#39;m guessing the difference is almost entirely from my AC. Given that nobody&#39;s making 10 SEER stuff any more, parts are harder to get, and when that coil goes, I&#39;ll have to replace the system anyway.

  • Speaking of the drip pan, since the humidity went up in the Phoenix area at the beginning of July, I&#39;ve had problems with my condensate drip line, which supposedly drains into the sewer, although the estimator told us he&#39;s seen other houses in our area where the drip line simply went into the dirt under/near the house. My current line is about 2&#39; of 1" PVC that goes to a T fitting. One half of the T goes through the slab and I can&#39;t see where it ends. The other half is open to the air. The clogs seem to be occuring in the part between the air handler and the T fitting, so I can replace that myself. However, if the problem occurs after the T, I&#39;ve been told it&#39;d be 0 to put in a pump and a new drain line that runs along the garage wall and out the front wall of the garage.

  • Also on the list of unwise repairs I&#39;ve done on this unit is the new contactor that I had the tech install on Saturday. The old contactor had been installed when the same tech replaced my compressor last summer, but the contact points were pitted and there was a lot of carbon built up. That was 0 I should have saved until getting the defrost board quote and deciding whether to fix or replace the unit.

By the way, is my year-old compressor worth anything?

Reply to
Travis Bickle

BBB is a JOKE!!!

Coleman is York...

Wow, now we have a $500 price for a defrost board!!! Ouch!!!

This now sounds like a clusterfuck!

$500 for a pump and line... Hummm.... would anyone like to comment on this?

Yes, you should have waited.

Nope

Nope, still checking out your wife!

Reply to
<kjpro

Who is your source of supply??? I need some more boards, and would love to get them at 40% OFF

Reply to
Noon-Air

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