well water vs public water - cost

[JoeSpareBedroom]

OK. I wondered what you meant. Most well water here has to be softened, or it's useless, so well water is NOT always the better choice, which seems to be what you were saying.

[Marilyn]

[Sheldon]

That's not true, in fact it's pure BS. Many very large municipalities have exceptionally soft water naturally... NYC has very soft water, Long Island water is filtered through it's natural aquifer, exceptionally soft water results. But modern radiator coolant (ie. Prestone, etc.) takes care of any water mineral deposits, and more importantly prevents boil overs by raising the boiling point... never ever use plain water in a radiator for any vehicle no matter how mineral free. Using distilled water in a raditor is something you just made up out of thin air, a crock of doodoo.

[Dan L.]

That's not true, in fact you are off ... mmmm ... aahh ... slightly.

Another person wrote the radiator question, not me Dan L.

Surface water, like lakes, ponds, rivers and aquifers tend to be low in mineral content and high in biologicals. Water from these sources are very soft. Some exceptions like the dead sea :)

Well water is different, most are high in minerals and low in biologicals. Well water is what we are talking about, not surface water. Most wells are deep, mine is 150 feet deep into the ground.

Now if I am reading this correctly, If you are saying all forms of water are bad for radiators, including distilled ... I agree. I always use the premixes anyways. However, the poster of the radiator question has some merits. They the powers that be also make pet friendly radiator mixes.

Enjoy Life .... Dan

[Travis]

Wrong. You should only use the recommended type of coolant in your car, truck etc.

[dr-solo]

it is useless for washing hair, clothes, maybe even drinking. but the harder the water, the higher the Na+ content, so that some people are told to RO the water if they have high blood pressure. I was told about somebody having real trouble with their goldfish, turned out their "salt" content was so high in the softened water it was stressing the fish out. calcium is a pain in flower pots, but here in Wisconsin everything in my mothers garden grew fabulously well on well water. Ingrid

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:35:49 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom" <

[Frank]

Electricity is a minor cost. Couple of months ago, my pump went too and cost ~$1,600 to have replaced. That's the 2nd one replaced and add cost of whole house filter and 2 new pressure tanks. But, this is over a 30 year period and all in all having a well is less cost than buying water. Same calculations can be done for septic and it comes out cheaper. Rough calculations based on friends bills on water and sewer show I'm saving maybe 50%.

Frank

[Sheldon]

Nonsense... you make it sound like softeners produce brine. A properly functioning water softener puts no more salt into water than exists in the water before softening, in fact water softeners usually produce water with a lower salt content than contaned by the hard water before softening, in removing minerals it also removes salt. The salt used in the softening process does not enter the domestic water supply, that salt is eliminated in another direction as grey water. If any salt does end up in dometic water it is so miniscule a concentration as to be negligible and has absolutely no more effect on plants than rain water... there is more salt contained in bottled water. There is plenty of info available on this topic.

[Sheldon]

One thing I neglected to mention is that well water does not contain flouride... often neither does municipal water. Any household that does not have fluoridated water needs to discuss this with their dentist. In case anyone hasn't noticed there is a much higher incidence of rotten teeth in rural areas.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Maybe, but softened water sure tastes like crap. Of course, this statement is based only on my experience in about 15 homes, two of which just had softeners installed by professionals.

[Sheldon]

Well, then you can only discuss those two homes with softeners... I've no idea how those other thirteen homes fit into this discussion about water softeners since those have none... perhaps you thought by injecting larger numbers, regardless how meaningless, you'd appear more of an expert, NOT! Actually has just exactly the opposite effect, proves that you know nothing.

As an aside most water softeners installed are of an inferiour quality and/or installed incorrectly. People who contract with the usual national brand water service companies typically get ripped off. You are much better off having your water softening system installed by an independant, the honest ones will refuse to service by contract, instead they will contact you once each year to set up a service call... anyone who guarantees your well water quality is as much a con artist as a medical professional who guarantees your health, both are charlatans.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

They all taste like crap in the same way.

As far as "independent" vs the word I used, "professional", I now need you to tell me who installed the softeners in the two aforementioned homes.

[Dan L.]

Softeners does not purify the water, therefore drinkable. I believe they remove some minerals like iron and manganese, but does not remove all forms of minerals or other stuff like biologicals. For Drinkable well water most need a filtration or steam distillation system.

I do not know if soften water is better or worse for plants. Soften water might be better than a very high hard line for plants.

However, my soften water does taste horrible ack! yucky. My RO water, pure distilled is tasteless, drinkable but not as good as bottled spring water with a few extra vitamins and minerals added. I use RO for coffee and cooking. I buy bottled spring water for drinking, mmmmm aahh goood :)

hmmmm :)

I have never tasted crap so I would not know if soften water taste that way. However, Joe have you really really really ... tasted crap? :)

I bet you never use that phrase again :)

Enjoy Life ..... Dan

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Your cleverness is...well.... zzzzzzzzzzz..............

[dr-solo]

incorrect. softeners do use a brine to exchange calcium for sodium ions. they are not environmentally friendly either.

"As the water passes through both kinds of resin, the hardness ions replace the sodium or potassium ions which are released into the water. The "harder" the water, the more sodium or potassium ions are released from the resin and into the water."

"A water softener reduces the calcium or magnesium ion concentration in hard water. These "hardness ions" cause three major kinds of problems. The metal ions react with soaps and calcium sensitive detergents, hindering their ability to lather properly and forming an unsightly precipitate? the familiar scum or "bathtub ring". Presence of "hardness ions" also inhibits the cleaning effect of detergent formulations. More seriously, calcium and magnesium carbonates tend to adhere to the surfaces of pipes and heat exchanger surfaces. The resulting scale build-up can restrict water flow in pipes.....

Conventional water-softening devices intended for household use depend on an ion-exchange resin in which "hardness" ions trade places with sodium ions that are electrostatically bound to the anionic functional groups of the polymeric resin. .....

The water to be treated passes through a bed of the resin. Negatively-charged resins absorb and bind metal ions, which are positively charged. The resins initially contain univalent sodium or potassium ions, which exchange with divalent calcium and magnesium ions in the water. This exchange eliminates precipitation and soap scum formation."

Ingrid

[dr-solo]

I agree. the "saltiness" of table salt NaCl is due to the chloride ion, Cl- ... and saltiness can be increased by adding a bit of acid, like lemon juice or vinegar. similarly, the saltiness can be lessened with a pinch of baking soda which brings the pH down. Ingrid

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:29:48 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"

softened water sure tastes like crap. Of course, this statement

[dr-solo]

correct, softeners do not purify the water. I just paid for the required once every 5 year well water quality test done, mostly for bacteria. Any hint of E.coli and the well must be bleached. E.coli is an indication that animal waste is seeping down into the well. the well is ONLY used outdoors for watering, but it cannot be contaminated anyway. we have an iron filter BEFORE the softening unit ... and this is for city water which is also from deep wells. In addition, this house has an RO unit for drinking water to lower the amount of Na+ ions.

evidently softening is prohibited in some areas due to the impact on the ecosystem of such sodium laced discharge. Ingrid

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:21:17 -0400, "Dan L."

[Dan L.]

I like smart people, ingrid is smart :) I can learn from Ingrid ....

Thanks for backing me up and adding common sense to this world. My chemistry and gardening knowledge is weak, that is why I scan this newsgroup. Mathematics, Physics and computer sciences are my strengths. However, I am becoming more interested in plant biology.

Enjoy Life .... Dan

[JoeSpareBedroom]

You never saw me say that, so I assume you were replying to someone else. Might be time to back up your reader's message files, and do some maintenance. It seems to be threading the messages incorrectly.

[Sheldon]

When bacteria is present just shocking a well with chlorine is not good enough, UV (Ultra Violet) treatment is also necessary (and testing should be conducted often, at least once a year, more often if small children, the aged and any with immune dificiency are present). Also the hot water heater needs periodic cleaning and shocking, the tepid water at the bottom of the tank along with all the sediment that accumulates creates the perfect environment for bacteria to flourish... the unit needs to be turned off and the tank needs to be shocked and flushed several times. If there are any old fashioned expansion tanks those require service too but really the system needs to be modernized, anytime there is stagnant water a problem will arise.

I've lived with well water most of my life, only a few times for short duration did I have city water. With well water a little common sense goes a long way, and well water is not free, dollars need to be spent on proper maintenence... bleach is cheap, UV lamps are expensive.... bleach is very temporary, UV is constant. I use both... I wouldn't live with well water that wasn't UV treated. All the air in my house is UV treated too.