Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?

It looks promising. But it is only 18" that seems like too short for me.

The long handle version looks very good. Then, I can stand outside or just inside the flower bed and remove weeds deep inside the flower bed. My flower bed is almost 6-ft wide; therefore, a long handle should come in handy. I probably will give it a try instead of using chemical weed killer.

I am not so sure whether I will try the short version. I cannot see myself walking around carrying two weeding tools.

I assume I am supposed to use this tool likes this:

- Place the blade over the weed and dig under it.

- Pull the blade toward myself; this action will cut the root of the weed.

- Leave the weed where it falls and let it decompose.

I have two questions:

- Do you think I can use this tool in area where there are a lot of weeds? Will I be able to cover a large area (such as 10-ft x 6-ft) with many weeds very quickly? Here, the area is still have around

1-inch of mulch left.

- Will it work if the area is already covered with landscape fabric under the mulch? Will I be cutting through the landscape fabric? No big loss; I don't like the landscape fabric anyway.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

Reply to
Jay Chan
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Thanks! :-)

I intend to setup a community, the food raise are use for support the community. I don't know should call it as garden or farm.

Cheers, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Reply to
nswong

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Jay Chan) wrote in news:c7e5acb2.0406301900.3b46b741 @posting.google.com:

If you don't want the landscape fabric, you should take it out while it is still relatively whole.

If you find a weed* growing through your fabric that can't be easily picked off by hand, there's something wrong with your fabric. (Perhaps you installed the wrong side up?)

*except pointy bladed onion things or similar that come up from below
Reply to
Salty Thumb

Standing outside the bed is good because you won't constantly compress the soil with your weight. The long tool contributes to this good practice. But, if there's a spot you can't reach, buy just one piece of flagstone or some such thing and locate it so you can step into the middle.

Jay....be serious. Put down one tool and pick up the other. Or, go to Home Depot & buy a large paint bucket for three bucks, and on of those canvas things that hangs in the bucket and has slots for tools. I think it's called a Bucketmouth, although there are other brands, too.

Correct. You glide the tool about 1" beneath the surface. But, you have to get to know the root systems of your flowers, or you could slice them, too. Very rare occurrence. Just stay a few inches away from the stems. As far as leaving the weeds to decompose, do that with some, but not those which have already developed flowers or seeds.

BUT: Keep in mind that this is NOT the tool to use for a garden which is an utter disaster, especially if it's full of weeds with very tough or woody stems. This tools is designed for working in a garden which has been properly put in shape - after the big Spring cleanup.

Another tool: Go to the Smith & Hawken site I provided for you earlier. Go to Tools, Digging & Cultivation, and look at the Gardenia hand rake. See the orange handle? It's got a knob so you can remove the short handle and replace it with a long one, so you can work standing up. Gardenia makes an entire system of such tools. Memorize the colors and visit some local garden stores, or call around first. Get the little rake and the long handle. Now, you have the best tool in the world for removing lose stuff from between tightly spaced plants.

My neighbors sometimes joke about how my raised vegetable beds look like freshly dug graves. If anyone tried to make off with my Gardenia tools (and a few others), the graves would not seem like a joke afterward. :-) These are really great tools.

I used this tool to manage a 25x8 vegetable garden. No problem. Keep in mind that as the season progresses and your flowers get bigger, they should shade out many of the weeds, so the job should get easier. And, some weeds really don't matter anyway.

I've only handled landscape fabric in the store, but never used it. So, my instinct would be to get down on hands & knees with a razor knife and remove the fabric first. Otherwise, any tool might snag the fabric, pull it sideways, and break the stems of tender plants.

In one of his newspaper columns, garden writer Henry Mitchell mentioned how funny it is when people go to Europe, visit famous gardens like those at Versailles, and comment about what amazing work the French kings had done for them 300 years ago. They forget the fact that the beautiful garden they're seeing is the result of just one thing: The work done yesterday. It sounds to me like you're trying to create a situation that cannot exist: a garden which needs no maintenance. If you want it to be beautiful, it'll require a little time each week. And if you make it beautiful, it'll be a pleasure to do the work.

The best you can hope for is this: Once or twice each season, you'll have to do major work, probably on your knees, getting the garden as clean as you can. Get to know which weeds appear at what time of year, and manage them accordingly. Those with seeds & flowers, you hack away and remove completely from the garden. The leafy ones can be left on the surface. In the summer heat, they'll be shriveled up within an hour. Some weeds look innocent on Monday and develop roots of steel by Friday. Get to know those, so when you see them on Monday, you don't say "I'll deal with it on Friday". If you do the hard work correctly, the rest of the season should be easy. And, if you do things right, each year should become easier. After 20 years in the same vegetable garden, mine was virtually effortless.

Reply to
Doug Kanter

Seem like you don't need to add any amendment to your garden yet.

Seem like if we need to add amendment to the soil where it is covered in landscape fabric, we will have to open/remove the landscape fabric partially or completely. This sounds like something that we need to schedule it in advance (such as a plan like "I may need to remove the landscape fabric after x years if a soil test indicates that the soil is lack of something, and then I can put the landscape fabric back").

I am sure that this can be done. I just didn't think of this when I put the landscape fabrics to my flower garden a couple years ago. Without knowing this in advance and making a committment to do this, I am now kind of surprised by the idea of removing and putting back the landscape fabrics.

Honestly, I don't really have any better idea either. If I don't put mulch on it, I will have to deal with a lot more weeds, and I may have a hard time to remove weeds if they have formed solid root into the soil. If I put mulch without landscape fabrics, the mulch will be mixed with soil, and I will still need to deal with more weeds. If I put mulch and landscape fabrics, I will have to remove/open landscape fabrics to add amendment. Seem like I am better off sticking with making as little change as possible; this means I should remove the mulch that is infected with termintes (this is the minimum that I should do), leave the landscape fabric there, and put fresh new mulch (probably the kind that you use). Also order a long handle weeder to remove weeds that manage to grow among the mulch. And worry about adding amendment later.

This sounds like a plan.

Jay Chan

Reply to
Jay Chan

If I were you, I would pull out the landscape fabric, use wet newspaper for weed suppression, and follow the lazy gardeners guide to........ lazy gardening.

Lasagna Gardening

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Reply to
cat daddy

I have used one of these for several yrs. It very effective and pretty effortless.

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Tyler

Reply to
Tyler Hopper

The landscape fabric is already there. I installed it a couple years ago. I would have to remove the landscape fabric and replace it with newspaper if I followed your advice. That would be more work for me not less.

Actually, I don't quite understand why we would use newspaper instead of landscape fabric. The only benefit that I can see of using newspapers is that they are free. But if we go through the trouble of putting newspapers to block weeds, we "may" be better off going all the way and install landscape fabric instead. The landscape fabric should block weeds better than newspaper, right? What's the reason of using newspaper instead of landscape fabrics anyway?

I am not trying to be negative. I just don't understand.

Jay Chan

Reply to
Jay Chan

Newspaper will decompose gradually, and if you want to add solid "amendments", like compost, before the newspaper breaks down completely, all you have to do is poke holes in it with your garden fork.

Jay, I'm curious about two things:

1) In any given week, how many hours of work do you think is appropriate to keep your garden in shape?

2) During the "special weeks", at the beginning & end of season, how many hours of work do you expect?

Reply to
Doug Kanter

I'm outstanding with my job, so sometime when I asked a question, people tend to think I'm "testing" them. The fact is, I really don't know or just don't understand. :-(

Your words touching me. So, I will try my best to reply you. ;-)

instead

After some thinking, I think comparing two may make it easier to understand.

Newspapers will decompose and become soil amendment. Landscape fabric will not.

Newspapers will not block nightcrawler(earthworm) from pulling plant debris to their tunnel as their food. Landscape fabric will, I don't think you will find much earthworm under the landscape fabric.

Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they decompose quickly. Landscape fabric may, after sometime the holes may blocked by roots.

Newspapers: For adding soil amendment(carbon/organic matter), just spread it on top of organic mulch(newspaper/manure/leaf...), eventurely it will find it way to soil by critters. Landscape fabric: Had to put it under the landscape fabric, or else only nutrient will pass through the landscape fabric in liquid form, but not much of organic matter.

Newspapers: When weeds find the way through the old newspaper/mulch, just put new newspaper/mulch on top of weeds. Done! Landscape fabric: Do you ever think of putting new landscape fabric on top of old landscape fabric? ;-)

Newspapers: Never need to replace, just adding new one. Landscape fabric: It's a nightmare to replace a landscape fabric that have plant root grow into it.

Using a sickle to cut what(weeds) above the mulch, leave it there, add some new mulch. I can cover 50-ft x 5-ft within one hour, and it can last for two months. Don't afraid of walking on the mulch, this will not really compact the soil, walk on bare soil are another story.

HTH, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Reply to
nswong

Well, Wong stated very good reasons and I agree with them, so I won't repeat them here. I went to totally organic, lasagna gardening two years ago, and my flower beds have never been better and have few weeds. It's all in feeding the soil and feeding the earthworms. Plastic landscape fabric defeats all those good things from happening. And, I do much less work, since I just throw a new layer of mulch on top and don't even work it in, just like Nature does. This retains the basic soil structure and doesn't disturb all the biological organisms.

Reply to
cat daddy

Thanks for the excellent analysis. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Reply to
cat daddy

wouldn't newspaper negate "organic".... ? Unless you get a newspaper printed with organic ink... : )

-j

Reply to
jay

Almost all newspaper in this country is printed with soy based ink. Personally, I'm not crazy about the newspaper idea, but you could do much worse things to yourself than use it as mulch.

Reply to
Doug Kanter

Thanks for your compliment. :-)

Cheers, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Reply to
nswong

Nowaday, most ink use for newspaper are soy based. :-)

Look at the Google search result below.

At my impression, for weeds management, mulch are mostly relate to no-till, organic are heavy tillage with machinary. But there is something call organic no-till, that is relied on heavy/deep mulch. But I may be wrong.

Regards, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Google Search: mulch newspaper soy Web Images Groups News more »

Advanced Search Preferences Search: the webpages from Singapore

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 592 for mulch newspaper soy. (0.13 seconds)

Newspapers as mulch material ... June 14, 1998. Editors note: I've asked every newspaper I ever used as mulch what they used as ink and they all said soy based. ... supak.com/mort/newspapers.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Gardening - Five Must-Have Ingredients for the Organic Gardener's ... ... most newspapers are now printed with soy-based inks ... use this method is to place the newspaper or cardboard ... springtime, the weeds are dead, the mulch has degraded ...

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Good Enough to Eat: Using paper as mulch is colored by several ... ... The PI uses soy-based colored inks; you can call ... Typically, they're not printed by the newspaper, and their ... shredded office paper or newsprint work as a mulch? ... seattlepi.nwsource.com/ nwgardens/163035_goodtoeat04.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

Marvelous Mulches | NRCS ... organisms. Straw, shredded newspaper (soy-based ink only), and grass clippings are popular mulches that decompose easily. Popular ...

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- 12k - Cached - Similar pages

Newspaper Mulch/add nitrogen? The use of newspaper as a mulch may or may not be "organic" >

because ... Most black ink used in most newspaper is soy based which > would probably be OK ...

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The New Homemaker: Merits of Mulching ... kind of ink they use. Soy based newspaper inks are nontoxic, and fine to use for mulching. Because newspaper by itself is light ...

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Links to General Emergency Preparedness Information presented by ... ... herb + More cake-in-a-jar recipes + Newspaper Logs + Oil ... y2k phone tip + Potatoes in the mulch + Smells in ... soya grits + Solar water distilling + Soy cakes + Soy ...

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- 78k - Cached - Similar pages

How do you recycle newspaper ... With the advent of soy and other natural inks, papers can be utilized for ... Another way to recycle newspapers is in the garden, using the newspaper as mulch. ... utut.essortment.com/newspaperrecycl_piz.htm - 5k - Cached - Similar pages

The Value of Mulching Plants ... I would like this to be used. Are you interested in this? "Dear student, I do not use newspaper mulch unless the ink is soy ink and safe. ...

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Reply to
nswong

I never try newspaper, but from what I read, I believe it's good for organic no-till home gardenning. Old newspaper are available to nearly each home, using as a mulch are another choice from recycle, and far better than go to landfill.

I don't using it because I'm going to large scale and sustainable, and will try to avoid any external input. Instead of buying some old newspaper, I prefer use plant debris from my land as mulch.

Regards, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Reply to
nswong

"nswong" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@uni-berlin.de:

Newspapers are primarly carbon. According to one source[1] 'paper' (not necessarily newspaper) contains 150-200:1 C/N, compared to sawdust at

100-500:1. Adding carbon will quite possibly detract from the amount of N available to a plant. Adding N to compensate will degrade the weed blocking utility of the newspaper as decomposition accelerates.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume carbon is of limited value as a nutrient amendment, as plants (primarily?) obtain carbon from atmospheric carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. At any rate, plants do *excrete* carbon from their roots after periods of elevated carbon dioxide[2].

However, I'll concede that the newspaper and newspaper debris may have indirect and significant benefits (functioning similarly to deciduous leaf litter) in providing habitat and food for beneficial insects and microbes and enhancing soil structure.

While not directly contributing materiel, it is possible that landscape fabric made of polyester (and perhaps also polypropylene) can fixate minor amounts of atmospheric nitrogen via wind action and electrostatic effect[3].

Yes, newspapers need to be replaced often compared to landscape fabric. To me, this is not an advantage in permanent or semi-permanent installations.

[1]
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"Table I. Carbon/Nitrogen Ratios of Some Common Organic Materials" [2]
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"Findings"

Unless nightcrawlers will chew a hole through newspaper to open their covered burrow (quite possibly true), unbroken newspaper is as much a barrier as landscape fabric. But assuming a population rate of 1-7 worms per square meter[4] there should be sufficient openings in a typical fabric installation such that the population is not impacted significantly (assuming there is no reason why they would not choose to use an available opening). Shallow burrowing earthworms do not share nightcrawler feeding habit, but may exit their wandering burrows during extensive rain[5]. [4]

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Newspapers will not block air and water to the soil, since they

Newspapers will block water to the soil or at the minimum cause pooling until drainage hole(s) are formed, which will not necessarily be uniformly distributed. Landscape fabric is semi-porous or porous to both air and water, as are roots. The mulch is more likely to block water than the fabric.

Correct, although the fabric will not necessarily pass the suspended nutrients, depending on the size of the pores in the fabric.

Weeds other than certain monocotyledons will not find their way through landscape fabric from below. If a plants attempts to colonize the top of the fabric, it is easily picked off. Done! No need to dig or look for a newspaper stand.

Landscape fabric is not overlayed because it is not necessary. However, if you have made a hole in the fabric that you do not want, it can be repaired by simply putting a new piece on top (or tucked below the existing fabric).

Landscape fabric: Never need to replace. Period. Okay, not in 5-15 years at least. Landscape fabric can become embeded with roots attempting to penetrate from below, but the removal of such fabric is of minor difficulty. Removing stripable wallpaper takes more effort.

Landscape fabric is a long term installation and will take more time for planning and preparation. The actual installation is simple.

Reply to
Salty Thumb

Hi Salty Thumb,

I start learnning agriculture by year 2001, that is after I went back to my hometown and deal with my land.

In my learnning progress, I do read a lot. Most of the articles I read are contrary with other articles. And it's hard to test it up who are correct.

I do read before from some articles that talk about the views bring up by you. But for going to sustainable and without bring in external input(landscape fabric), I tend to remember those comment that say bad words to landscape fabric.

I'm not reach the level to able to tell which one are correct by now, but will grad to find it out if it does not cost too much of effort. Since I will not going to use landscape fabric, if you can share your personal experience with me(not those you read from), I'm grateful to this. :-)

I'm going off to my land now, will reply you when I'm back.

Cheers, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

amount of

plants

carbon

deciduous

landscape

electrostatic

fabric.

their

share

roots.

pooling

newspaper/mulch,

fabric on

through

However,

Reply to
nswong

Hi Salty Thumb,

After the second pass read though your message, I'm afraid that I can only reply you in very short form. Due to my bad English, I had problem in spelling and phasing my words, it do take great effort for me to write in English. Sorry about that. :-(

amount of

plants

carbon

deciduous

landscape

electrostatic

fabric.

It depend on the carbon are in what form. If it's sugar or starch, it do. If it's lignin or cellulose, the effect should be unnoticeable. Newspaper are compose mostly by cellulose.

Adding N will not always speed up the decompostion. It really depend on situation.

Mulch supress weeds not just because the physical blocking ability, it can also leach out some chemical harm weeds. Critters in mulch will also help to supress weeds.

But to me, I will never add N to the mulch

plants

carbon

deciduous

Yes, here the soil amendment I'm refer to improve soil structure.

landscape

electrostatic

I believe N fixed by bacterial using carbon as energy in orgainc mulch will do a better job.

fabric.

For this I do facing problem to explain my view. In bussiness, we talk about total cost of ownership. In here we talk about in the total life span of the product, how much cost involve and how much the return get.

For this, I'm not know enough to provide a view. Sorry about that.

Thanks for the links, I will look at it later. :-)

their

share

their

A few sheet of newspaper will not block earthworm.

share

I'm quite sure landscape fabric significantly reduce earthworm population.

roots.

pooling

Look at all short of filter we use, they all block. Do a test, remove the mulch on top of your landscape fabric, put some water on top of it, see how long it will pass through.

Mulch have critters making tunnel in it, except there is little critter in it.

I'm refer to those nutrien that resolve in water as liquid form.

newspaper/mulch,

fabric on

through

However,

No comment.

From what I read, if landscape fabric are expose to sun, will not last long.

From what I read, those user of landscape fabric donot take it as "minor difficulty".

No comment.

Sorry, I'm getting a bit impatience. :-(

Sorry, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Reply to
nswong

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