Nope. I happen to value human life more than animal life. Call me a species chauvinist if you like, but I'll save a human life over a different animal any time.
And in saying that, you are being really insulting. You had absolutely no right to call Nelly heartless, especially given the tone of her post. What I gave you was a perfectly rational, ecologically sound answer. If you've ever seen real habitat degradation because of some animal overpopulating, you might have a different attitude.
I value all life. I am against abortion, but pro choice. I don't like murder, but I'm against the death penalty. I see life as life and it's all important to me. Like I said, I have a different view than you.
I had every right to call her heartless. I live in America. Last time I looked I had free speech protection. Isn't that what our illustrious ass of a president killing people for?
I have seen overpopulated areas where animals suffer. One such place is the penn where they hold cattle before they kill them. I don't own my property. I'm a steward of my property. Animals are life forms. I plant extra for them.
The whole planet is in danger, dear. By 2020 it's estimated we'll need 50% more food. That is a lot of food. There are other reasons for growing your own than money savings, and you know it. People who're too lazy to make a tiny bit more efficient use of the space they're taking up probably deserve to be all the poorer. But here I've been trying to grow, amongst other things, enough cukes each year from just 2 plants. I have rabbits; ok, so I'll plant 50+ seeds. 3 of the last 4 years, the rabbits got every last one of 'em. Thankfully there's still enough grown elsewhere to go around...for now. I'm going to try bloodmeal this year & see how it goes.
You're a vegetarian and no, there's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with not being one, either. I'm doing what any other species' ancestors down along the evolutionary line have come to do; there's no shame in that. But you were right about one thing; people have and still are foolishly overpopulating the earth; too many take up more space than they need; and they are also cruel, evil, heinous (& all your other adjectives) when they harm other living creatures unnecessarily. But not because they're omivores. Or might dare to be brave enough to humanely destroy rabbits rather than see them suffer.
Which incidentally I may not have to worry about, AFA the babies. We've had an alarming amount of torrential rains over the last couple of days here (Midwest), it's pouring buckets now, and we are in for more over the next week. That planter just never drained well when it got that soaked. I want to check in on them so much, but I fear disturbing the nest further may make it worse, assuming it's not already ruined. I spoke with someone who raises rabbits who told me that for whatever reason, they do not move their nests. So looks like the thing to do is just keep avoiding it & let the situation run its course. But I'm going to be more than just depressed if I have to remove starved-dead babies.
No, nothing wrong with NOT being vegetarian at al. It's my choice to be vegetarian. I do find that alfalfa pellets are rather inexpensive and rabbits like those, so I use it to deter the critters from plants. It doesn't stop the squirrels from coming down eating one bite from each on the tree. Even still, I would never consider trapping, live or otherwisem, the squirrel for fear they do have a nest somewhere and will be taken away from nurturing the infants.
All I suggested to you was to grow a heart in that garden of yours. A little compassion goes a long way. If you rationalize it to mean you should kill animals because they are starving, this is not what I meant. When I rescue rats or ants out of my swimming pool, the life I'm saving is my own.
OK, put that way, sure. You're wrong and inconsiderate and rude and a host of other pejorative adjectives, but sure, you have the right, I guess. And no, Bush isn't killing for free speech. He's killing for a lot of reasons, like oil, and his tiny penis, and the fact he hasn't had a drink in 20 years- but not freedom.
You have, then, no idea what horrific habitat degradation is like. Try the photo here:
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's not just the particular species that suffers; it's whole ecosystems.
Good for you. But your ethics are not universal, there's no reason for them to be universal, and insulting someone who doesn't share them is inappropriate, to say the least.
I'm well aware that if there are babies in my planter then there are probably a gazillion more underneath the shed & elsewhere, so whatever trapping there is to do will probably have to wait. But I will NOT feed them. They are attracted to these man-made structures, while nature has provided them a bounty across the street (but admittedly, I'm not at all sure whether they've already overpopulated that area or not...). The only things I go out of my way to feed are (native-only) birds; and except for hummingbirds, I often have doubts about how big of a favor I'm doing *them*.
So then, I reiterate: Why do you keep implying I have no heart? Would it surprise you to know that I relocate spiders & bugs I find in my house? That I've rescued toads, bees & mice from my *own* pool? That I have black rats living out back & don't ever bother them? That in another state I own & maintain 30-some acres of unspoiled woodlands thriving with chipmunks, squirrels, deer, native birds, hornets, spiders, mice, snakes, tortoises, salamanders, skinks, butterflies, moths, beetles, and numerous plant, mushroom, moss & lichen species? And, except for the mushrooms & a few wild herbs & berries, I don't bother any of them. Nobody in their right mind who knows me at all can say I don't respect nature. I think you've got me wrong, stranger.
I said nothing inappropriate, in my estimation. I expressed myself. How it's viewed by those who read it are interpreting it the way they see it, through the veil of their beleifs. I don't intentionally kill. Especially under the conditions of your photo, which I have not looked at. Certain images are not good for anyone to see. Things like it break my heart.
I write to a killer in prison. A complete gang banger, killer, murderer. Has killed even IN prison. I still found under it all who he is and how remorseful he is. I would fight to the death to prevent his execution. Fortunately, they rearly, if everr, execute in California. Texas is another story. They kill people like it's ordinary and just fine. They have no idea.
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 05:36:44 -0500,when reading "rec.gardens", I'm certain I caught a glimpse of "Jangchub " saying:
I eat both meat and vegetables so I'm not a vegetarian. But I'm a keen gardener and grow vegetables because I'm able to grow them and it saves me having to pay for them at the supermarket.
We have an abundance of Native and Feral animals that can attack our veggies so if we don't control those animals there is no point in planting vegetables in the first place.
You have said something similar before and I still can't understand what you mean.
Recently we had a cull of 400 Kangaroos because drought conditions caused lack of feed. If the cull hadn't been carried out they all could have died.
In another situation where a small confined population of Hares [an introduced species] were in danger, they were culled to preserve their community.
I daily set traps to catch feral cats which are picked up by the RSPCA.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say?
Do you think it's always appropriate to express yourself? I would say not, especially when you're saying something that is derogatory, and implying someone is heartless certainly falls into that category. It was a gratuitous insult, really.
The photo doesn't show any animals at all. It shows what happens to habitats when animals are allowed to overproduce. Humans have changed the ecological landscape to such a degree- favoring some species and eliminating others- the in order to maintain some sort of balance, we must take more active measures. It often isn't pretty. But you claim to be a steward of the land. Death is a natural part of the world. In my estimation, a proper steward understands the need for active management and, at times, bringing one population back to within normal limits, so that all the other populations don't suffer.
I am also luck to live in New York, where executions are rare, if not unheard of. I don't even recall the last one here.
By a "different view" I mean I do not see humans as more important life forms than rabbits. I see all life as equal. I try to view all humans, friend-enemy-stranger as all the same, as well. I didn't say it is easy, but I do. It's my belief system. I don't say you should adopt it, but I commented on something very strong you said regarding killing rabbits. I'm way in the other direction. I've purchased feeder fish and crickets and other live animals fed to snakes, etc, and freed them.
I say NO penis or balls, and do you honestly believe he stopped drinking 20 years ago? I said "freedom" facetiously.
I won't look at the photo. I don't need to. I am well aware of the ravaging overpopulation is capable of. This is why I strongly believe in zero population growth. I've been criticized for saying that, but I stand by my opinion anyway.
I don't see my ethics as universal. If I did we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If I got you wrong I apologize. I've met far more people who disregard life outside of human life. I also feed the birds, but I have no way of NOT feeding non-native species. I provide nesting areas for barn swallows, purple martins, wrens and other cavity dwellers. We have a pair of boat tail grackles this year. Big, honkin', loud things. Totally unafraid of people and generally fly in flocks by the tens of thousands. I hope they don't all move in. I still have no way of preventing starlings from eating out of the feeders.
Anyway, you came off very harsh at first and now you are changing your tune a bit so there is no longer an argument.
I'm saying I don't discriminate between human and animal life. I see both as valuable and would not kill either, intentionally. I believe in karma. Karma is a Sanskrit word meaning action. Everything I do will have a reaction which will ripen at some point. If I save an ant from the pool, someone will save me. If I kill, I will eventually be killed. Action/Reaction. I'm a Buddhist and we don't believe in killing anything.
Culling to prevent starvation? I'm a little torn by that one. Admittedly, I have put my pets down when they were suffering. That type of killing karma is not as heavy as if I did sport hunting for fun, not food. I won't kill animals to feed me, either. If I don't eat meat I am not part of the cog where animals suffer to feed me. Because it's in the package at the grocery store doesn't mean it didn't once have a face with eyes. I don't know, this is who I am. It upsets me when people kill because I don't want to see them suffer, but there is nothing I can do about that.
This may all sound ridiculous and superstitious, but not to me or to the billion other Buddhists on the planet.
I think we could all benefit by having a bigger heart.
I recently had an article published in Mandala Magazine. I'll paste it here and you will see it is consistent with what I said. I already apologized to Nelly. I think the discussion never sank into harsh speech; it was a debate and may continue to be so. The article is the unedited version and I've removed my full name and email address for obvious reasons. I am absolutely NOT implying people become Buddhist, nor am I saying Buddhists have the lock on this philosophy. I did, however, write the article for a Buddhist magazine which was published, I think in April. I don't recall, but it was this year.
How to Garden Without Killing
Most of my life I have done some form or gardening. After I started to garden I became an organic gardener. However, gardening organically involved poisoning insects and as a Buddhist practitioner I believe any form of killing, is killing which was no longer acceptable and something wasn't right; killing is killing and although beneficial insects do this in nature, they continue killing habits.
I became honest with myself and realized the introduction of beneficial insects with the intention to alleviate insect pests was also killing karma and barbaric. I discontinued use of all insecticides and noticed further I have a garden teaming with wildlife. The realization was if I used native plant species, the garden would attract and give habitat for myriad native creatures.
Interested about the creation of habitat for displaced animals due to rapid rates of urban sprawl, I found a book by Sara Stein, "Noah's Garden." The author discusses how to become a "un-gardener," on your property. Tolerance for wildlife of all forms is necessary for this to work. It is not about tidy or formal gardens. It's about creating natural habitat.
We used native plants more and more, designing a garden creating irregular shaped beds and paths as nature does. The outcome is amazing! Creatures are naturally attracted. It took a few growing seasons, but one night there she was, a mother sentient being; a fox and her two pups! She was living under our shed in her den.
Later on, corn and rat snakes, skinks, anoles, fence lizards, armadillo, opossum, a cuckoo bird, woodpeckers, toads, frogs, and a large array of insects. Sadly, most of these creatures eat other creatures. Some say great, the snakes eat the rats; the fox eat the snakes, lizards eat the toads, but this is nothing to rejoice about.
Fortunately these animals wound up in the garden of a Buddhist practitioner with holy images all about, prayer flags, tsa tsa's (which I make) up in trees, on the fence, and I play Holy Guru Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche reciting the Sanghata Sutra outside. When I weed, I say mantras out loud for them to hear. I listen to my Lama loud enough for the wildlife to hear her wisdom. This is what I rejoice in. I delight to know there is a possibility of a virtuous imprint so animals may find a good human re-birth.
This is something a garden phases into on its own and generally takes three years of patience, keeping the yard weeded by hand, fertilize the soil using certified organic fertilizers and making use of native plants for your region. Eventually, native plants can take on a beautiful habit and if we let nature do its job, everything will strike a balance. Making sure the soil is teaming with organisms is vital to a healthy garden. Worms turn organic matter into elements which roots can use easily. Worms are the work horses in a natural garden. To many, this type of garden is rangy and may wish to have a neat, orderly garden. They may be organic gardeners, but using organic pesticides kill. How then do we garden without killing?
The most important part of a healthy garden where you don't have to kill is to nourish the soil. Learn what type soil you have by calling your local county Cooperative Extension. I highly recommend the book, "Secrets to Great Soil," by Elizabeth P. Stell.
Compost is black gold and important in which you can help cut down on the amount of garbage filling the landfills, rapidly reaching peak (in America). We have a half acre and use our brush to assemble a pile instead of sending it to the landfill. Many animals live and take shelter in the brush pile. These include, but are not limited to Carolina Wrens, raccoon, opossum, armadillo, etc. Currently, we have a raccoon. Our resident opossum died last year. He was a male and their lifespan is two years. Our resident lived here for over five years and though he never came up to the house, when he was ready to die he did it near our back door. Maybe he wanted to tell us good-bye and thanks, who knows.
Unhealthy plants attract insect pests and succumb, while healthy plants with vigor have the stamina to thrive a temporary infestation of insects. Good garden hygiene plays an important role in having a healthy garden. Let's face it; I've heard teachings about which there isn't an atom of space without a sentient being. We are all killing constantly, but without intention. Being mindful that I am doing this all the time is helpful to my practice. It brings me down to being part of the big picture which tells us we all, each of us, are as important to the existence of every other sentient being. I tread lightly. All sentient beings have Buddha nature and we won't get there by killing to have perfect gardens.
Repeat: tolerance is necessary in order to garden without killing. A squirrel lives out back and she comes to the peach tree daily and takes one bite of ten or more peaches! I've talked to her letting her know she is welcome to eat the peaches, but to finish one and then take another. It never works, so tolerance is necessary. The records say I own my land, I say it's only on loan to me. I am a steward, not the owner.
Mockingbirds love tomatoes. They stick their beak into a tomato and pierce. I cut this part off and eat the tomato. Insect pests get a hankering for one of my ornamental plants and destroy its aesthetic, but I've learned to tolerate this. It helps on two levels; I don't get angry at the insects (how silly anyway!) and I am not attached to the plant. I know people who cleave to their gardens as if they are more important than any life form and douse chemicals everywhere.
In closing let me say gardening naturally adds joy to our lives. Giving enough imprints to an animal trapped in the lower realms is vital for the sake of all beings. Learning how to be tolerant of animals has been a rewarding lesson. I can look at rats now and appreciate their beauty and their intense suffering; being hated and murdered every second of every day. These too are all mother sentient beings in a lower realm and I vow to take part, however small, in protecting them so they may take a good rebirth and during this life keeping their suffering to a minimum.
Our garden is a National Wildlife Federation Backyard Habitat and Texas Parks and Wildlife Certified Backyard Habitat. More information can be found on links I provided at the end of this article. With the vast urban sprawl I mentioned, the very least we can do is provide habitat, no matter how small the property. The most important thing which we must remember in this precious human body is simply, don't kill. When you rescue an ant from drowning in the pool the life you are saving is your own.
Yes, I do tend to sound gruff, but with me it's often something of an affectation. For instance the part about "her dumb ass squashin' my coleus", that probably should've had a smiley or something after it. So it's not really that I was changing my tune exactly. Just gave the wrong impression. Wasn't out to offend anyone's sensibilities.
I think the grackles did all move in here this year. There were none at all last year, now BOOM. What a cacaphony among the beautiful songs of all the other birds. But I wish I knew what to tell you about the starlings. They are just the worst plague on native birds everywhere (besides humans, of course). I've seen a few here starting just this year, but they've so far stayed away from my feeders. House sparrows are a bigger problem for me, but it's easy enough to just not buy anything with millet in it, or to never toss any seed or breadstuff on the ground. I've been a local bluebird monitor for a couple years, and if I thought I would live in this house a while longer I might put up a box for them in the yard. But ohh, the gruesome horrors those sparrows do to those poor birds.... And you probably don't wanna know how I deal with them. Although, I could probably put up a few boxes at the cabin (the woodland property) next time I get out there, even though it's been years since I've even spotted any in that entire area. Being so far away I couldn't monitor them or anything but I think whatever nests in there might be safe from the HOSP due to its being pretty far from civilization. I'll have to check how far they need to be from the farms & granaries & such.
But getting back to the bunnies; today I saw them beginning to poke their heads up under nest covering, so they somehow survived all the flooding rains. Their eyes are now open, too. I'm told the momma only goes back to the nest once a day to feed them, so I won't know if she did or not for a bit I guess. AFA the population problem, I still have to see what I can find out. Even if they get relocated, there's still the big hollow under the shed & that'll have to be filled or else the others'll just move right on in. And good luck getting this landlord to do it.
If the OP is in North America, wild rabbits do not make good pets. The domesticated rabbit is descended from European rabbits. North American rabbits and European rabbits are not closely related and have totally different social structure and behavior. Someone getting a young American rabbit and expecting it to behave like a pet will be extremely disappointed.
I apologized a few minutes before posting a reply to you, so it may not be up yet.
I'm glad we worked it out like adults. So much of Usenet is full of people who misread things. It's hard to see a person's eyes through the monitor. There is such kindness and such nightmares we're capable of as a species.
So at least we argued in favor of the same ideals. Thanks for sticking it out.
Yeah, well, the starlings are wreckless, but I can't hold it against them. They are birds, not people and they don't actually think. They are not capable. Actually, in Buddhism the animal realm is one of the hell realms. It's a realm which is immensely difficult to dig out of. I feel such compassion for the animals. The neighbors let the cats out and run around and my husband gets so mad, but it's not the cats fault. The cat is a cat!
Now my parrot; whole different story. She knows how to talk and use language appropriately. She is still a bird, but one which is as intelligent as a three year old human. For an animal, that is smarter than most people!
I hope you find a fix for the rabbits, but maybe you can construct a cheap chicken wire fence around your vegetables and throw out some seeds elsewhere for carrots and lettuce for the rabbits.
I recently posted a request for info regarding trapping gophers. I imagine, based on where this thread has gone that that request repulsed you.
I thoroughly understand and agree with the idea of creating a natural habitat. I have done just that in my backyard. I have used all native plants which have attracted birds galore, squirrels, lizards, the whole variety of insect life that supports all these, etc. And all of this in about 1/12 acre. In almost every case all of us enjoy this habitat w/o destroying it.
The one exception is gophers. They leave huge mounds of dirt everywhere, and basically destroy the habitat.
So I ask you, as the life respecting person that you are, how you would deal with such an intrusive pest in your garden. Leaving it alone to continue it's destruction is not really an option. I'm not looking for detailed instructions. I just want the gist of how you would deal with such a problem.
I never had gophers and I've never had to trap them or be concerned for their presence so I cannot give you any advice. I can only give you advice based on my experience. I do know one thing, if you have gophers your soil is nice and soft.
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