The curse of BER

[Paul M. Cook]

I guess I am finding it hard to believe that these plants require such a delicate balance to thrive, or even do reasonably well.

Paul

[Billy]

Section 11: Toxicological Information Routes of Entry: Inhalation. Ingestion. Toxicity to Animals: LD50: Not available. LC50: Not available. Chronic Effects on Humans: Not available. Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available. Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans: Not available. Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans: Acute Potential Health Effects: Skin: May cause skin irritation. Eyes: Dust can cause eye irritation. Inhalation: This material is a dust or may produce dust. It may cause respiratory tract irritation. Breathing in small amounts of this material during normal industrial handling is not likely to cause harmful effects. Breathing in large amounts may be harmful. Ingestion: May cause digestive tract irritation. Swallowing small amounts during normal industrial handling is not likely to cause harmful effects. Swallowing large amounts may be harmful. Symptoms of exposure to this material through inhalation or ingestion may include: mouth and throat irritation, scratchy feeling, and coughing.

the 5:1:1 mix only:

1 level tbsp of dolomitic (garden) lime per gallon of soil or 1/2 cup per cubic foot. Don't worry about gypsum or Epsom salts unless you decide to try the gritty mix.

More than I'll ever want to know about container gardening:

[Billy]

Then again, the BER just might clear up on it's own.

At one point, IIRC, you said you had 6" or so of bark mulch in your pots. If this is true for the tomatoes, you may want to pull it out and replace all but the top inch with soil, which would increase the amount of water you have available.

[Tom J]

You seem to have a very neutral soil in your area. Lucky you!! My base soil is very acid red clay, so it takes a lot of amending & regular soil test to keep mine neutral.

Tom J

[Paul M. Cook]

Last year I tried the bark mulch. Not this year, just straight Sta-Green.

Paul

[Billy]

These may be helpful now, or in the future.

[David Hare-Scott]

I had always considered dolomite to be one iof the fairly benign agricultural minerals and the possibility of it doing personal harm is new to me.

Dolomite is calcium magnesium carbonate. It is slightly soluble and mildly alkaline in water, very much like agricultural lime. It is often used in place of lime to raise pH and/or to add magnesium if the soil is deficient. It can contain impurities of heavy metals but so can gypsum and other agricultural minerals, the risk with these is cumulative build-up rather than immediate damage.

What do you mean by "it can burn your lungs"? What damage would it do?

What do you mean by "burn your soil"? What would happen? How is it different to "non burning agricultural lime" (which is calcium carbonate) other than the presence of magnesium as well as calcium? How does the magnesium make it dangerous?

If you are not in a position to supply details yourself please give a reference to this information.

David

[Boron Elgar]

I create the quality soil that goes into the pots and tubs I use. I start with plain old "dirt" or sometimes with top or potting soil, depending on what is handy, then add compost, Epsom salt, peat, manure and anything else that the particular plant I am growing might require.

It is rather easy to "make" good soil for pots that way and one can tailor it to whatever one grows. I make it by the garbage-can full. The next season, the pots' contents are screened, re-amended and re-used, assuming no veggie-pest or contagion has hit it, in which case, it get placed in flower beds.

I have also taken two backyards and made vegetable gardens in them by soil amending over the years. It isn't something that can be done in one season, but it can be done. All it takes is time and some money.

Then again, I am in NJ and they don't call it The Garden State for nothing, although it should be said that in the central part of the state, when my father in law, from whom I learned a lot, practiced his master gardening, the soil was brick red clay.

Boron

[FarmI]

You seem to be increasing the difficulty by looking at everything but the most obvious. Toms aren't all that delicate. They aren't as tough as old boots, but they also aren't very hard to grow if you live in a climate where there is sufficient heat.

If you have 2 ft pots that dry out during the day, you have enough heat. Reread the thread. If you sort out your watering problems and then still have problems, that is the time to come back with questions about additives or other problems etc.

[FarmI]

And where did I say that planting in pots IS the cause of BER?

So why can't you identify the difference between what you are doing and what the OP has said?

If you actually bothered to read what I wrote, to spend a nanosecond thinking about it, you might be able to figure out what you have sorted out and what the OP has NOT done despite him having been told a number of times in the thread what the likely problem is. Hint: it is not pots, it is how he looks after the pots and what may (repeat; may) be easier for him to control if he plants in soil.

[Paul M. Cook]

I do not have a watering issue. None, zip, nada, zero. I bought a meter some weeks back and I water when the pots "dry" out but do not get "dried" out. If the 2 times the leaves wilted a very little causd BER, then I will never grow tomatoes again.

Paul

[Dan L.]

First, I will state DOLOMITE is a very good product for gardening and farm use! I am saying, use personal protection like the labels on the bags state. I use and will continue to use dolomite.

I dropped a bag once and the dust flew. I was coughing so hard my lungs was so sore and had a burning feeling for a week before I could breath right. I had chest xrays and medicine to help the irritant clear up. I did have safety googles on that protected my eyes. However, I had no respirator, I used a cheap dust mask, that mistake will not happen again. It may not kill or do permanent damage. However, I would not take that warning label on the bag too lightly. Those bags of dolomite that I have purchased, all have a warning label that states "USE A RESPIRATOR WHEN USING THIS PRODUCT".

David, have ever used Dolomite? David, have you ever not read the warning labels on those bags?

Burn your soil - like in have you not ever put too much fertilizer on your grass? It turned the grass brown like it was BURNED and it took weeks for the grass to grow back again.

Agricultural Lime is mostly pure calcium carbonate. Depending on the soil test that extra magnesium may not be needed or wanted. I stand corrected about the statement I made -> "non burning agricultural lime" that statement may not be completely true.

There are some forms of pelleted limes that may not burn. Example "NUTRALIME" a commercial product name.

Unknown if it is better that other forms of limes, however I never need a mask with it and I could use a cheap spreader.

Do I need to repeat the web sites the Bill and Billy has posted? Ok.

section 8, on personal safety for dolomite. States to use safety goggles and a respirator.

[Billy]

Just for the sake of science, what do you think would happen, if you dug a 2 cubic foot hole, and slid one of those bad boys into it? Could things be worse?

[Paul M. Cook]

My soil is extremely hard, alkaline stuff. Almost like cement. It would need a lot of TLC to make it tillable. Plus I don't have very much of it.

75% of my back yard is concrete. So really planters are my only reasonable option.

So far my yellow pears are putting out nice clusters of very healthy fruit. I just found a couple of worm damaged ones tonight but no BER. Same happened last year. I am really thinking the Celebrity is just a temperamental and needy little variety. I'll be trying patio come the end of July. We have warm days and nights past September usually so I can probably get a crop or two in before winter.

Paul

[FarmI]

There seems to be someone posting using your name and saying different things over several posts.

[Boron Elgar]

Right up above you implied it:

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I can easily identify that. Your comments, on the other hand, were leading him down the primrose path.

There is no reason to re-read what you said, as your posting was simplistic and misleading. It is not irregular watering of the plants in pots that necessarily caused BER, nor would transferring them to the ground necessarily prevent it.

End of story, bub.

Boron

[Paul M. Cook]

I'll repeat, it is *not* a watering issue. Unless these damn things are so delicate they rot out if the moisture fluctuates 1%.

Paul

[Billy]

From the top.

BER is said to occur when there is

1) uneven watering, 2) drought, 3) heavy rainfall, 4) excessive nitrogen fertilization, 5) rapid plant growth or root pruning during cultivation, 6) high winds and rapid temperature changes.

The rapid plant growth and nitrogen fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, when most BER occurs.

THEN IT USUALLY GOES AWAY.

BER occurs because under the above conditions, Ca++ moves from the fruit into the stems of the plant. Some feel that Ca++ never reaches the fruits because under stress, demand for Ca++ exceeds supply.

This reduced amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++ displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has just been displaced.

University field trial experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition of Ca++. Peppers and some cole crops are also susceptible to BER and Ca++ addition for those crops also.

The results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.

[Billy]

From the top.

BER is said to occur when there is

1) uneven watering, 2) drought, 3) heavy rainfall, 4) excessive nitrogen fertilization, 5) rapid plant growth or root pruning during cultivation, 6) high winds and rapid temperature changes.

The rapid plant growth and nitrogen fertilization are both common to conditions seen early in the season, when most BER occurs.

THEN IT USUALLY GOES AWAY.

BER occurs because under the above conditions, Ca++ moves from the fruit into the stems of the plant. Some feel that Ca++ never reaches the fruits because under stress, demand for Ca++ exceeds supply.

This reduced amount of Ca++ is what causes BER. Excessive rates of transpiration (kind of like sweating in humans) also is involved in Ca++ displacement. Thus, the plant as a whole is NOT Ca++ deficient, the Ca++ has just been displaced.

University field trial experiments have so far failed to show that BER can be prevented by addition of Ca++. Peppers and some cole crops are also susceptible to BER, and Ca++ additions have been made for those crops also.

The results are the same; addition of Ca++ does not prevent BER.

THEN IT USUALLY GOES AWAY.

[David Hare-Scott]

There are a great many substances in this world (including lime) that are harmless in most circumstances that will do you harm if finely divided and breathed in.

Yes, I see no difference to lime, which was my point. I don't wear a mask when using either. Nor do I throw it about and inhale the cloud.

Yes, everything has warnings on the bag. This shows that we live in a litigious age not that everything is seriously harmful. I am amazed that it doesn't warn "may contain peanuts".

I have seen this happen though not been personally responsible. Applying lime or dolomite does not have the risk of causing this problem because they are so chemically different to the soluble salts that make up synthetic fertiliser or the compounds found in (say) fresh chicken manure. This is not to say you cannot overdose lime or dolomite but the consequences and the speed of onset of the problem would be quite different.

Pelletised products may be less irritating if thrown about. In some circumstances finely ground lime is preferred because it spreads better and dissolves (and so acts) faster. For example the local limestone quarry has a course grade for industrial use and a fine grade for agricultural.

No need to repeat it, it looks to me about the same as lime, that is 'slightly hazardous'. I wasn't saying that it is harmless but that you were exaggerating the likelihood of injury from occasional use. If I was spreading tons of either lime or dolomite behind the tractor I would be wearing the full protective gear but that is not adding a spoon of it to a pot plant.

David