30x50x16high wood framed shop. (2x6 rough cut lumber framed walls) Friend wants to delete the intermediate horizontal wall framing between the vertical studs. Spacing is currently at
5' o/c between plates in the vertical plane. They've decided on steel sheeting for side/end walls. Diagonal 2x6 bracing from top to bottom is still in place and placed at the face of the exterior by cutting into face of vertical studs.
Query 1. Their desire is to replace the intermediate framing with a 1x4 on the exterior face of the vertical studs at the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts Albeit the wall depth is increased to 7", anyone see a structural problem with this?
Query 2. In lieu of the inset 2x6 diagonal bracing into the vertical wall studs, what about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
Sort of a mix between a PEB and wood framed structure...............
Plz don't delve into; a.. hurricane strapping b.. proper seismic tie ins c.. footing details d.. interior design/mechanics/usage e.. insulation factors f.. rafter framing g.. building usage h.. dimensional sizes i.. codes Not trying to be a wise acre here but .....everything here is very loose, metaphorically speaking..............
for side/end walls. Diagonal 2x6 bracing from top to bottom is still in place and placed at the face of the exterior by cutting into face of vertical studs.
face of the vertical studs at >the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts
about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
metaphorically speaking..............
Not trying to be a wise acre here but .....since everything there is very loose,
And you don't want to delve into;
a.. hurricane strapping b.. proper seismic tie ins c.. footing details d.. interior design/mechanics/usage e.. insulation factors f.. rafter framing g.. building usage h.. dimensional sizes i.. codes
And you don't give the location of the "shop"....... I guess you can do pretty much whatever you want.
btw what is "intermediate horizontal wall framing" ?
a.. hurricane strapping b.. proper seismic tie ins c.. footing details d.. interior design/mechanics/usage e.. insulation factors f.. rafter framing g.. building usage h.. dimensional sizes i.. codes or any other "structural" matters pertinent to your question, i suppose you've excluded pretty much any comments regarding your situation.
why did you even bother posting ?
Query 1. Their desire is to replace the intermediate framing with a 1x4 on the exterior face of the vertical studs at the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts Albeit the wall depth is increased to 7", anyone see a structural problem with this?
Query 2. In lieu of the inset 2x6 diagonal bracing into the vertical wall studs, what about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
Sort of a mix between a PEB and wood framed structure...............
Plz don't delve into; a.. hurricane strapping b.. proper seismic tie ins c.. footing details d.. interior design/mechanics/usage e.. insulation factors f.. rafter framing g.. building usage h.. dimensional sizes i.. codes Not trying to be a wise acre here but .....everything here is very loose, metaphorically speaking..............
seeing as how you don't want to be told about a.. hurricane strapping b.. proper seismic tie ins c.. footing details d.. interior design/mechanics/usage e.. insulation factors f.. rafter framing g.. building usage h.. dimensional sizes i.. codes or any other "structural" matters pertinent to your question, i suppose you've excluded pretty much any comments regarding your situation.
why did you even bother posting ?
I'll tell you why; Because I only needed answers to the original questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't need, nor require, answers to extraneous/frivolous queries pertaining to any who, what, why, suppositions. I thought the questions would be extremely simple for people that build with wood, but perhaps I was wrong.
A simple wall, different framing details, end of story! Not asking for loads for wind, snow, siesmic, etc. 2 questions, end of story..................I know what works with steel, I'm not fully cognizant with what works for wood, henceforth, my 2 questions.............................
In the event you're one of those individuals that needs a picture, plz. respond with an address. I can send one to you as a jpg, bmp, gif, wmf, cdr, png, psd, pdd, rle, dib, eps, psb, pcx, pdp, raw, pct, pict, pxr, pbm, pgm, ppm, pnm, pdf, sct, tga, vda, icg, vst, tif, tiff, dwg, dwf, skp, skb, 3ds, zip, rar, mpeg, qtv, psp, etc, etc etc. Just name the format please.
The reality within this NG is people 'tend', at times, to read more into a query then is asked. Henceforth my msg. requesting no answers nor queries regarding; a.. hurricane strapping a.. proper seismic tie ins a.. footing details a.. interior design/mechanics/usage a.. insulation factors a.. rafter framing a.. building usage a.. dimensional sizes a.. codes
Michael's response is correct. (The intermediate blocking between the vertical studs @ 5' O/C.)
Per; >>>BOBk207
Yes they can! They could build it out of cheese if they wanted to. FYI: No seismic, water, wind. Northeastern Washington State if that affects the design..............
Dan
Query 1. Their desire is to replace the intermediate framing with a 1x4 on the exterior face of the vertical studs at the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts Albeit the wall depth is increased to 7", anyone see a structural problem with this?
Query 2. In lieu of the inset 2x6 diagonal bracing into the vertical wall studs, what about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
What? You're the only one that's allowed to ask questions?
pertaining to any who, what, why, suppositions. I thought the questions would be extremely simple for people that build with wood, but perhaps I was wrong.
You don't have enough experience in this area of construction to answer your own questions, but you understand enough to know what you _don't_ need answered? Doesn't appear that way from the answers.
for wind, snow, siesmic, etc. 2 questions, end of story..................I know what works with steel, I'm not fully cognizant with what works for wood, henceforth, my 2 questions.............................
respond with an address. I can send one to you as a jpg, bmp, gif, wmf, cdr, png, psd, pdd, rle, dib, eps, psb, pcx, pdp, raw, pct, pict, pxr, pbm, pgm, ppm, pnm, pdf, sct, tga, vda, icg, vst, tif, tiff, dwg, dwf, skp, skb, 3ds, zip, rar, mpeg, qtv, psp, etc, etc etc. Just name the format please.
A suggestion. If you are willing to type a list of forty formats, you have the time to post a couple of pictures so everyone can see what's going on, and _then_ ask your questions. Answering the odd question about additional building information/conditions, instead of fielding questions and comments about your attitude, would probably get you better answers a whole hell of a lot faster and with less aggravation.
query then is asked. Henceforth my msg. requesting no answers nor queries regarding;
vertical studs @ 5' O/C.)
the design..............
If they can build it out of cheese, and that's okay with them, then let 'em. If they care about the building, whether there are governing codes or not, it should be built to last. This implies understanding the loads likely to be encountered and designing the building accordingly.
exterior face of the vertical studs at the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts
What is the purpose of removing the horizontal blocking?
about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
General idea is fine. You could sheath the corners of the building in plywood/OSB, suitably nailed, to handle the shear load. Either way, metal strapping or OSB, the nailing patterns and connections are either designed to handle specific loads or you're just guessing at them.
pertaining to any who, what, why, suppositions. I thought the questions would be extremely simple for people that build with wood, but perhaps I was wrong.
for wind, snow, siesmic, etc. 2 questions, end of story..................I know what works with steel, I'm not fully cognizant with what works for wood, henceforth, my 2 questions.............................
respond with an address. I can send one to you as a jpg, bmp, gif, wmf, cdr, png, psd, pdd, rle, dib, eps, psb, pcx, pdp, raw, pct, pict, pxr, pbm, pgm, ppm, pnm, pdf, sct, tga, vda, icg, vst, tif, tiff, dwg, dwf, skp, skb, 3ds, zip, rar, mpeg, qtv, psp, etc, etc etc. Just name the format please.
query then is asked. Henceforth my msg. requesting no answers nor queries regarding;
vertical studs @ 5' O/C.)
the design..............
exterior face of the vertical studs at the same elevation as the intermediate framing and fasten the steel sheets to the 1x4's. IE:sheeting girts
about substituting metal banding that's screwed/nailed to the face of the studs (interior and or exterior [mutltiple?]) that would wrap/fasten to the upper & lower plates? As in diagonal brace rods in a PEB?
Chill Dan...........
story..................I know what works with steel, I'm not fully cognizant with what works for wood, henceforth, my questions .......
Simple response to Query 1. Why & Yes
Simple response to Query 2 Yes if done correctly.
Sorry Dan but timber framed structures either have to satisfy "convention construction" prescriptive "design", be designed per some sort of code or be engineered. In order to do these things one must know the operational environment of the structure. Changing from convention construction to alternative materials & construction methods requires evaluating whether the substitute meets / exceeds that of the original.
You Canuckiadians! I suppose in the frigid white North tofu would behave more predictably due to the lowered temperatures, but if you'd ever seen a tofu structure that had been baked by the sun you'd be singing a different tune. Cheese technology is far more advanced. Ceramics are just non-edible cheese substitutes.
pertaining to any who, what, why, suppositions. I thought the questions would be extremely simple for people that build with wood, but perhaps I was wrong.
Dan:
I would not even venture to guess at the answers to these questions in a post to a newsgroup. There may be issues unrelated to the structural design (such as fire blocking) that are part of the question and part of the problem.
You said the project is in NE Washington State. AS I'm sure you know, Washington uses IBC2003 for any non-residential structure. Most jurisdictions in Washington State will require engineering calculations for any changes to the structural system.
And yes, I could do this work, but it would be 6-8 weeks before I could pick it up.
You're not keeping up with the latest structural research.
UC Berkeley has developed & patented radiation crosslinked sunlight resistant tofu, excellent structural performance from +160F to -65F.
It has anICC approval pending for high wind & e/q resistant design plus in a pinch after the natural disaster (before FEMA arrives) you can scrape the walls & make a nutritious survival soup.
This tofu also has anti bacterial effects that can be used to purify water from compromised municipal water supplies.
Bob, Therein lies the gist of my query. According to the property owner, the only inspection required is septic and power. Building permit comes from the county with no plan review, according to the owner and I've never known this guy to lie. Seemed strange to me but.........Building is in the county.
The owner asked for a mix of design. He didn't want a full blown wood framed wall as one usually would. He wanted to eliminate the fire blocking, although the walls are 16' high, because the interior is not covered (sheetrock/OSB, etc.) in any way. It would be open like a pole building on the interior with faced insulation between the studs.
I asked if the wood diagonal bracing could be replaced with properly fastened steel banding to provide shear loads because the owner asked. Much like diagonal cabling or diagonal brace rods in a PEB. The exterior of the building will be gauge metal sheets. Hence my question of the 1x4's with the wall sheets as a part of the shear. The 1x4's would act as sheeting girts like a PEB or pole building. Owner has no plans to install OSB or like sheathing to the exterior walls. Owners comment was if he can do it differently and faster and cheaper but still be solid as hell and meet or surpass any codes that might come up, why not.
Rico.........
I would have IF I had a place to post them. I suppose there are places but I've never been there. It's my understanding it's not within etiquette to include them as attachments within the NG. But as I stated, I can send them 'as type' if someone asks.
26 years in construction in almost every field but wood. Some formwork but darn little. Completly remodeled/reframed/rewired/replumed (including newly framed doors/windows/etc) my last house with no mistakes in the city & passed all inspections. However, I didn't feel that made me qualified to answer the questions I raised. Steel, yes, wood, no! At this juncture Rico, we can't even seem to get past this wall, let alone other details.
Bobk207
The owner is looking at different methods that will meet/exceed any current codes, albeit he states there's no plan review, yet can be done faster & cheaper. As in why install fire blocking if the interior is open? Why cut diagonal 2x6's into the face for shear if you can use properly attached metal strapping with the addition of the exterior 1x4's with metal siding? When the owner started asking me why not, it made me wonder as well.
Sounds like one of the rural counties (Pend Oreille? Ferry?). The fact that there is little plan review does not eliminate the need to build according to the state building code, which is IBC2003 for this type of building.
As soon as he puts in insulation he needs fire blocking.
The fact that the building is a hybrid means it requires engineering. A building with 16-foot walls is a pretty significant structure, even if it is only made of wood. I think you should insist on engineering, if nothing else for your own protection. If something happens to the building, your contractor's license is in jeopardy.
Perhaps the short answer to your questions might be something like this, "Maybe". The use of bracing of any type in lieu of shear walls requires an engineered design according to IBC2003. The fact that the walls are over 16-feet tall requires an engineered design. The county may not do a complete plan review, but I would not be surprised that they would require an engineered design as part of the submittal package (even if they don't understand it).
Please don't misunderstand. I'm not lobbying for more work for myself. I've got too much on plate as it is. If your friend needs help finding an engineer, then I may be able to help with that.
Bob, Everything will meet or exceed any codes. The owner is just looking for alternatives to beat the costs of construction costs (read labor costs)as in standard framing. Basically speaking, everything will be be overbuilt. It comes from working for the federal govt. where he is employed. Like I stated, he's looking for alternatives to the labor side. His stepson is working for licensed contractors putting up wood framed houses/etc. (10 years) and has some idea of what's going on. But the owner is looking for ways to do different things to cut costs.
I was just looking for opinions on the design change. Little did I surmise it would create so much controversy/recoil for what I considered a simple change.
Therein was a purpose for my query. I stated my expertise relative to wood is nil.
yep!
Bob, you know as well as I do, there are extraneous answers and queries unrelated to a post that detour from the OP. I just wanted to avoid the extraneous and subjctive stuff. Albeit it seemed to irritate some....
Here and again, we're not at that point in the design, henceforth, irrelevant. I'm just asking about a DCN for a wall.
Been there, done that! But my experience is primarily steel. Which is why I asked about the faced 1x4 for shear, with the metal wall sheathing. A PEB is a freak until the wall sheets are applied to get shear.
No wind in 60 years. Per owners father that lives there.
Elev. unk. The best jobs are gotten when each part considers the other......... best jobs?, consideration? what the hell are those? ;-) Dan
applied, as well as cut in diagonal bracing for shear? Whether it's interior/exterior or both?
unrelated to a post that detour from the OP. I just wanted to avoid the extraneous and subjctive stuff. Albeit it seemed to irritate some....
I'm just asking about a DCN for a wall.
asked about the faced 1x4 for shear, with the metal wall sheathing. A PEB is a freak until the wall sheets are applied to get shear.
Dan-
I give up, too many variables floating in the wind.......overall objective unclear (minimze labor cost?)
as are desired performance levels & building configuration
for example....
It's either open on the interior or it ain't......which it is will drive the design.
another example
irritate some....
I'm just asking about a DCN for a wall.
What you consider extraneous may important to the building designer......
"we're not at that point in the design, henceforth, irrelevant."
again, might be best to consider it now......IMO best design practice is to bounce between "the big picture" & the "details" ....leaving stuff off until later invites re-design.... a balance is needed
enough "big picture" & "details" to move the project forward w/o having to redo stuff.
When the proposed structure is outside the normal framing methods then it is bound to start a controversy. I understand the concept of trying to cut costs. I make my best attempt to save the owner the cost of my fee in the details of every design I do.
I will repeat: a building with 16-foot high walls is anything but ordinary and should be engineered. There is no "build in excess of code" here, because the code does not directly address this type of building.
Does this mean strap bracing or even using the steel siding for its shear value is out of the question? No, it doesn't. But, only an engineered design can answer these questions. And that's the point I want to make. Trying to save a couple thousand bucks in engineering fees is not the answer if the building is under-designed from the start.
As for loads, minimum ground snow load per SEAW Snow load manual = somewhere between 45 psf and 80 psf depending on project location. Minimum wind load is based on 85 mph (3 second gust) per state building code. If the building is fully enclosed then the 10 psf minimum rule will probably govern. If the building is only partially enclosed, then the design gets more complicated. Seismic load will be minimal, but not non- existent. For a light structure such as that proposed, wind load will definitely govern.
I recently designed a shop/garage building in the Quilcene area using embedded poles. Eave height was only 9 feet. The building was not, however, a conventional pole building since the contractor did not want to deal with the heavy bolted truss connections required because of the labor involved. The roof system was metal over a plywood diaphragm transferring loads to the end walls. The end walls were plywood sheathed with metal siding. The back wall was metal siding only because it was a long wall and the shear value of the siding was sufficient to act as a shear wall. Shear walls were attached to the poles via strut/plate at the bottom of the wall. Pole embedment carried the loads into the ground.
The above example is intended to show that it is possible to design unconventionally framed structures to save labor, but they must be properly engineered.
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