New Job, another cabinet

OMG This cabinet has a few screws. Normally I use no metal fasteners on the carcass'. This cabinet FF's have rails that are just under 80" long and I have no clamps that long. I used pocket hole screws on the floating tenon reinforced FF joints to simply draw the joint together while the glue dried. This is cabinet number 47, that has front and back face frames, that I have built since December 2011.
I got the go ahead from my veterinarian to build this cabinet for her IT room last Thursday morning. Monday I bought the materials, MDO and poplar and began cutting. Two days later the cabinet was in the clamps. The customer will paint and hang the cabinet.
As usual all panels fit with dado's and fit into groves on all rails and stiles on both front and back FF's. Groves and dado's are 3/4" wide by 1/4" deep. I glued the FF's together after cutting all groves and then completed dados on the FF"S where the joints are.
The front and back face frames, 3 vertical panels, and top and bottom panels all went together in a single glue up. That was approximately 650 linear inches of groves and dado's that had to be glued in about a 10 minute period.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/26152610300/in/dateposted-public/
If you look closely at the bottom of the rail, both sides you will see half of a French cleat. This will greatly aid in positioning the cabinet near the ceiling before attaching with permanent lag screws through the back face frame rails and stiles. The customer is going to cover the 8'x8' wall with 2 3/4" sheets of plywood, glued to the wall and screwed into the steel studs before hanging the cabinet. The French cleat is white oak and attached to the FF with 8 floating tenons and a pocket hole screw on each end on each opening. BTW, the cabinet is up side down in this picture.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/26176815890/in/dateposted-public/
I really like working with this MDO product although as Swingman pointed out earlier there can be a few thin spots under the outer veneer. However out of 6 sheets that I bought for this job and the garage cabinet job that I installed last week I have only found one spot where the veneer had a void under it. I still much prefer this product than paint quality plywoods. I just do not have issue with tear out and the thickness is pretty consistent.
Next week I begin on the 4 doors.
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On Friday, April 15, 2016 at 5:02:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I have to say, I looked REALLY close, and I just didn't see the half cleat. Right picture?




The one man army of cabinet making is on the loose again! That's a lot of work with your sure-shot methods to build a long lasting service cabinet, a nd I will bet your clients are tickled pink to have someone produce that ca liber of workmanship so quickly. No one around here could crank that out t hat quick!
I haven't used any MDO for a while, but I will be looking into that product when I need a paint grade panel. When it came up before under discussion here I was waiting to hear what you thought. The last time I used it was a while back and I made panel doors to match existing cabinetry, and as I sa id, at that time I really liked the product for its consistency along with the fact that it held paint very well.
Looks like this project is already well in hand!
Robert
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On 4/16/2016 1:10 AM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

If you look closely at the bottom of the rail, both sides you will see

No, not that picture, this one. ;~) https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/26176815890/in/dateposted-public/
Look at the top of the bottom rail, zoom in and you can detect the bevel on the back side.

I do not normally build quite as quickly as with this project, but I had committed myself to be done by the end of the month and I had other irons in the fire. Plus the weather was threatening all week so I gambled and purchased materials first thing Monday morning. Then I hate to have full sheets of material sitting around over night... ;~)

I have known about the product but never really thought to use it until you mentioned it earlier. I love the fact that because the outer veneers are coated with a resin they tend to not let moisture penetrate. That IMHO is why the material remains very flat. This makes cutting dado's in the material very easy especially when I do not have to worry about the depth being the same all the way across the panel. And no tear out of the outer veneer, cut edges remain crisp and sharp through out the milling process and build.
I have not yet seen the product painted. ;~) I'm taking your word about paint worthiness, but that has been backed up by my supplier and Norm! ;~)

At this point I need to build 4 doors and it will be complete. I'm glad that the customer understood from the start that I would not be hanging it. I thought the French cleat would aid greatly in getting the thing into position so that they could fasten it with out worrying about holding it up too. There are about 1.5 sheets of MDO in that cabinet. I do not feel that the MDO is really much heavier, if any, than standard paint grade plywood.

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On Saturday, April 16, 2016 at 8:44:32 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Got it. My spacial orientation was goofed up.




Thanks for the report back. It makes sense that the more stable resins used in the product could certainly lead to a more stable, consistent product d ue to the difference in manufacturing. Some of the new "XXX boards" are re ally wood products at this point, no longer wood plies of specifically orie nted plies to make a stable plywood product. Personally, I have lost any o f the romance of working around inferior grade products and their defects t o prove my craftsmanship. I want a kill shot. So all the series of "MD wh atever" stuff is good for me as long as I can turn out a quality end produc t.
Since you specify exactly what operations you used on the board (dadoes, cu ts, cross cuts, etc.) that make your thoughts based on your experience valu able.

Crap... roll out the big gun, why dontja? To heck with me and your supplie r, you summoned up "The Flannel One"! No one does that lightly... ;^)
Robert
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wrote:

I'm hoping to get my material for FF's tomorrow or the next day. This post of yours reminded me of a question to ask you. You mentioned cutting the completed dado's on the FF's. I have seen the before and after's of the backsides of your FF's and wondered how you finished the dado. If you used a saw for the edges and a chisel to hollow it out, or a jig and router? or, or? :)
Btw, thanks for the posting of the basic information, it is a confidence booster when doing your own stuff.

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On 4/26/2016 7:35 PM, OFWW wrote:

Trade secret. ;~)
I do not have a picture but will let you try to figure it out by my description. I have toyed with building something better and maybe selling it, butttttttt... I even contacted "The Routerman" about this task and he was not sure himself of how to do it.
So you cut all groves in the stock before assembly. After assembly, at every joint, you have to complete the groove/dado into the stile and some times the rails if you have mid point stiles.
When Swingman and I were working together building kitchens the front face frames needrd the same finishing touch. Fortunately the front face frames inner sides face the back of the cabinet so if the completion of that grove/dado is not perfect, no big deal. It is only a few inches at most, mostly less than 1" long.
But 5 years ago, I with the wisdom of a higher power, came up with a way to build cabinets/furniture with back face frames. And often these cabinets have glass doors and or doors that expose the inner back face frame from the inside of the cabinet. This presented a problem as the cut to finish those groves/dados was going to be visible and needed to be as close to perfect as possible.
Still with me? LOL
The finish cut is done with a trim router with a 1/2" diameter blade. When Swingman and I did this, IIRC, we marked where the material needed to be removed and eyeballed the cut, 1/4" deep. Not always pretty but hardly visible unless yo crawled inside the cabinet and looked at the back side of the FF.
So Have you ever seen a way to cut dado's, with a router, on a panel using a couple of boards clamped on the surface? You use a scrap piece of material that will fit into that dado to be cut to gauge the distance between those the guide boards. You use a 1/2" diameter "top bearing" flush cut bit to ride along those boards.
Still with me?
The method described above is slow and I have to make that cut a minimum of 8 times on one cabinet. Here is the secret. I use a scrap to place down into the existing dado that needs to be extended. That establishes the width that I need to complete the groves/dados. I attach a 1/2" length of Baltic birch plywood to both sides of that scrap piece while it is sitting fully seated in the groove. I do this with pocket hole screws. Now, those lengths of BB are my guide rails for my trim router and are the same width as the existing groove. Set the trim router on the guide rails and adjust the bit to touch the bottom of the existing groove.
Take care with tear out on the exit side of the cut. And turn the router off before removing from the jig or you will surely nick the guide rails. DAMHIKT.
Clear as mud?
I'll take a picture if you nee one. ;~)

Your are most welcome!
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Sorry, I use a length of 1/2" thick BB on both sides of the scrap. Not a1/2" length of BB.
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On 4/26/2016 9:14 PM, Leon wrote:

ROTFLMAO ...
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LOL, I got that one. ;)
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wrote:

Got it! The thought occurred to me as I was reading it, that something similar to a hinge jig modified, with one edge micro adjustable, and clamps would work.
I like your fore and aft stops or nick protectors.
My wood is coming this afternoon, and the weather is finally GOOD!
Thanks for the wood picture, it seemed very clear to me, and I'll print it out for my first FF for the corners, just to be sure.
Thank you.

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The beauty to my jig is there is no need for clamps, the jig fitting the grove snugly keeps it relatively stationary. But as Swingman said there is no need to use a jig , for perfection, on a surface what may never ever be seen again.
But, again, it does make quick work of finishing the dado's if nothing else.
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On 4/26/2016 7:35 PM, OFWW wrote:

I do hundreds, if not thousands of faceframes for kitchen and bath cabinets, and simply use a Bosch Colt, by hand, for that task.
I simply mark the two delineating lines with a square and freehand it with a laminate trimmer; if the wood is dodgy, and/or subject to tearout, I simply score the lines with a sharp chisel first.
... and yes, when _I_ do it, it is very rare that it is not "pretty".
To wit: ;)
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopMeeksBathVanity2013?noredirect=1#5860883948288768370
TIP: If you need greater than 'by hand' precision, you can also use a small framing square as an edge guide for your router.
Or - make a simple jig.
Context: If you are making one-off _furniture_ pieces, and using face frames both front and back, by all means do whatever is necessary to get a fine furniture "fit and finish".
That said, on kitchen cabinetry, using two face frames on single cabinet is not only redundant and unnecessary for structural purposes, but far from _cost effective_ , as it doubles the cost of both your faceframe material, as well as the shop time in making them ... not something you can get away with when competitive bidding on a large kitchen with dozens of cabinets.
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WOW! I have built just under 100 front and back FF's in the last 5 years and maybe 50-60 in the years prior to that. If I had thousands under my belt maybe I would not need a jig. Although with the jig I can knock out the 4-6 dado completions on a FF in less than a couple of minutes, placing the jig, cutting, walking over to the next cut spot and repeating.

Actually I think front and back FF's on permanently mounted cabinets would be a waste of money and time. I do it because it greatly strengthens furniture that most certainly will be moved from time to time and hopefully will last for generations. I did do f&b FF's on my recent garage cabinet job because I feel that they will be removed and relocated one day, and that was what the customer wanted.
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On 4/27/2016 8:00 AM, Leon wrote:

Supposed to be "on", not "of" ...

Yep, dadoes on faceframes ... that's over six hundred right there.
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On 4/27/2016 11:21 AM, Swingman wrote:

LOL that makes a BIG difference, "on" not "of".
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On 4/27/2016 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:

All it takes is the wisdom of a higher power. ;)
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Why y'all always gotta gay up the wrec, little feller?
__ U o \__ / ____// -- Who's your daddy, Leona? / / / /\\ __ \/ /--\\-U o\__ | /=|____ ___// -- Please be gentle, KKKarl! | / ||/ || ||_ ||_ ||_
LOL!
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And that one was a mighty "purty" one too!

I'm considering that after reading Leon's post, but I want to do a few first the way you guys did it just to get a handle on it.

Yes, I was thinking about that as well, and as these are kitchen cabinets I bought so poplar for bracing and will more than likely use 1/4" plywood for the backs. If I don't then I will paint the walls before doing the installation so as not to ruin the painted cabinets.
I couldn't locate your post this morning on the table saw riving knife and the out feed table, I was going to reply to that first, but I will do it later today when I locate it.
Thanks for your comments as well, Mr. HP ;)
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Nice reach around, OAF!
| | | OAF | |______|_ _ _ _ o ( )OO)()(())) / __ \ \ \ \ o OO )OoOOo)()() | / \-\ | | | |-----OoO))()( |(o | | | | | Mr. HP O00) | \__/-/ / / / /------Oooo() \_____|__/_/_/_/ ( / \____\____/
LOL!
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On 4/27/2016 3:06 PM, OFWW wrote:

Higher than him actually. ;~)
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