Initial review of the Delta Left Tilt Unisaw w 50" Beismeyer - refurb - (LONG)

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Well guys, lunacy got the better of me and I drove down to the local Industrial Machinery dealer to look at REAL table saws. I've had enough of the warped table, 30" fence, noisy motor, and crappy cuts on my cheap old contractor saw.
Looked around the place to see what other possible options existed.
General 50-185 - nahh - yet another cheesy imported contractor saw. Decent looking Bies clone fence, made in Canada, but without the handle retaining magnet. Same old twin parallel-bar arbor supports that twist ever so slightly every time you change blade angles. Taiwanese motor that looked pretty decent. Good paint job, that odd General color. Nicely detailed metal adjustment wheels, but the effect is ruined by the cheap-ass pin locators that allow the handles to flop around. Shoulda used a flat and setscrew, guys - it can't cost THAT much. After all, this is one of the main connections a user has with his machine. Table finish was pretty good - couldn't catch a fingernail on the mill marks, but there was an odd pattern to them..
General 650-T50 - much better, and the price demonstrates that fact. Won't break this one down, as it is way more expensive than I had in mind. But it did seem like a fine saw, with a nicely polished table.
Delta 'Hybrid' - ugghh... there are no words to describe how I feel about this abortion. Completely Chinese. Flimsy contractor saw mech, motor in base, cheesy handwheels, promising on-off switch - but probably has under-rated pot-metal contacts, as do most. Table finish is fair, but I didn't bother to check for warpage. Not a contender. And the price? Get serious! I vowed to never own a Sears product again, even though I was a devout customer in the 70s and own about a thousand pounds of Craftsman Mechanics tools, but this thing makes their new hybrid look pretty good. There is something funky about the arbor as well.
Powermatic PM66 - Fantastic saw, fantastic table finish, exceedingly smooth mechanism, great wheels, Baldor motor, great mobile base that moves this behemoth with a 52" fence and extension table effortlessly with one finger. Interestingly, it uses only 2 2V belts, rather than the three 3V belts generally seen in a saw of this caliber. I have no doubt, however, that it will cut anything you throw at it. The price reflects it's perfection - at $2200+. I'm not all that fond of Powermatic Gold - but if I could afford it, I could learn to love it. No Farm Store motors for this puppy, it doesn't appear to have a standard mounting frame, but a very proprietary motor mount. (As does the Delta Unisaw.)
Ahhh, the Delta Unisaw - there it is. The table saw many a young man has dreamed of for well over 25 years. Biesemeyer, the fence that everyone likes, is pretty long in the tooth, but solid and very heavy. Very little deflection - locks down solid. But the faces are not replaceable without major surgery should they become damaged. And the adjustment screws are not very convenient to adjust. Good thing you only have to do it once. The fence rule is a thin metal affair that is glued to the fence rail. The Delta Uni Fence. The Uni Fence is pretty cool. Lots of neat looking fasteners and the adjustments seem easy to get to. Many novel features. Scale is up and out of the way - I like the look and feel, but it seems a bit complicated, and not straddle jig friendly at all. Saw proudly displays a sticker - Made in USA. But is it? Press on... Can't get into the motor housing, they still have the screw installed. Handwheels are heavy, but the castings are a little rough. And those shiny but rough T-shaped, winged locking knobs just look crappy - like a glorified wing nut. I suppose they work, but a triangle shape with the corners lobbed off and the in-betweens rounded inward would be much more appropriate. Or just round. The mechanism is fairly smooth. Clearly visible table milling marks, but nothing too bad. Blow molded double layer motor cover - this should help quiet the saw's motor. 4" dust port, chutes for dust collection. What appears to be a magnetic switch, but they just HAVE to call it a GPE switch - or is it a LVC? Damned acronyms. Switch looks rather dated. No paddle for quick shutoff, but the GO button is recessed, and the STOP button is a mushroom. Should be easy enough to hit in a hurry, and is located just below the fence rail on the left of the saw. It's sure as hell an improvement over the "Switch of Death" that came on my current saw. Chinese saw blade. Cripes, why do they do that? Just sell the damned saw and let the user save a few bucks and buy a real blade of his choice. The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber showing on the end. It's not flush to the saw table wing, but it's close - could be assembly error and abuse. Oh, and the blade guard, what a joke. It allegedly props up for blade changes, but don't count on it staying there. It's no wonder so many of these things end up sitting in a dusty shop corner.
Most of the saws on display are thrown together haphazardly or incompletely. Not a good way to make a positive first impression. Damned, has every one just given up? Where is the pride in workmanship? For that matter, where is the greed that one assumes would demand a good showing of your wares?
Oh, well. Welcome to the 21st century - where nobody gives a shit.
Here's the deal - they have a stack of refurbished 36-L31XBC50 saws for $1249. Pretty good deal, even with a few warts. So I bought one. I picked a salesman who actually looked me in the eye and said "Hello" when I came in. Most of them wandered around and ignored me. A nice old gentleman in a flannel shirt - named Ron. Don't get me wrong, I don't want anyone hanging over my shoulder, pressuring me like a car salesmen, but Jeeze... Look in my direction once or twice, act interested, acknowledge my existence.
Got it loaded up fairly quickly. The forklift operator was careful. Thanked the salesman, tied it down with ratcheting straps brought for the job, and left. Man, is the road in this industrial park pathetic. Holes and railroad tracks so deep you have to slow to 2 MPH to keep from bottoming the suspension. Carefully, cautiously, I completed the trek home. Watching for every cell-phone yakking idiot, every red-light running moron - and there were a slew of them. Man, I hate cities like this. Fortunately, I don't have far to go - about 10 miles.
Arrived at the homestead and carefully backed into the drive. I don't want anything untoward happening to this saw - it's got to last a lifetime. (Which in my case, probably isn't that long...)
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw01.jpg
Unloaded all the accessories, and then came the moment that separates mice from men. Pulled the tailgate and slid two 2x10s with metal hooks over the bumper. Slid the saw to the edge and down the planks. No problem, but man is this thing heavy! SWMBO helps push the monster out of the bed, and helps stabilize it from tipping over. Great! It's on the ground. Now for the hand truck. Wow, it's STILL heavy as hell. Carefully rolled it into the garage - the tip sensor says everything is OK - no red. Everything should be cool.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw02.jpg
Stripped the straps and box. The pallet just falls off - the attaching screws have been ripped off in some previous life, and all that was holding it to the saw are the straps. Well, that's OK - I don't have to find a wrench and crawl around on the floor looking for fasteners. I pulled the extension wings off the table surface, and placed them on the now empty box. These things are heavy as hell!
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw03.jpg
I stand back for a good look. Cabinet looks like new, base is not bent, switch isn't broken. But wait, what's this? My heart implodes. The tilt adjustment shaft looks wonkey. Maybe it's an illusion. So I scramble towards the saw for a closer look.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw05.jpg
Yea, something's funny here, the end of the shaft looks smashed. I pull the motor cover and wrestle with the expanded foam bags and foam blocks. These have apparently been foamed in place, 'cause its darn near impossible to remove them - even with the motor lifted and tilted to an optimum angle. Finally, I hold my mouth in just the right position and they fly to freedom. I pull the blade and hardware box from the base, and open it, frantically looking for the handwheel and shaft key. What's this? A crummy, poorly stapled, one sided copy of the owners manual, for a different model, and no parts list or exploded diagrams. (Yes, I know you can download copies, it's just not the same as an original.)
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw04.jpg
I slip the key in the slot and it doesn't fit properly. I finally find a position that it accepts and slide the wheel over the shaft. Uh-Oh.. it doesn't go on very far. But it's enough to rotate the shaft. My worst fears are confirmed. The shaft is bent! About 2 inches into the cabinet, there is a severe bend. ARRGGHH!!!
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw06.jpg
So I inspect the reminder of the saw - what's this? Apparently the saw has been damaged previously, and the front trunnion has been replaced. It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has been recruited to repair this saw. The motor shaft has been driven in with a hammer and the shaft is peened over from the blows. And a WEG motor - made in Brazil of all places. No Baldor for MY Unisaw. Well, at least it's not Chinese. Unlike the handwheels, accessory castings, the miter gauge, and most of the hardware.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw07.jpg
A quick scan of the net shows no outstanding motor problems, and WEG motors are used in a number of applications - including huge 100 HP industrial models. I guess it'll be OK.
Then I notice the serial number has been cut from the unit. How fracken tacky - makes it look like stolen merchandise. I don't mind the refurb sticker, but in this age of computer tracking, wouldn't it suffice to simply tag it in the computer as a refurb and affix a label designating it as such? Is it necessary to totally orphan the unit by slicing away it's birth certificate? They don't do this with refurb electronic equipment.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw13.jpg
I rub away the cosmolene to reveal the table surface. The surface finish on the table is rough - so rough you can file your fingernails down on the grooves. This has me very concerned. Sliding a piece of wood over the surface with slight pressure results in wood dust on the table. The table has been ground so far that the miter bar is only .001" below the surface of the table at points. The edges of the miter slot are sharp, and will have to be chamfered slightly, for fear of physical injury. I checked the table with a machinist straightedge and feeler gauges. The main table is flat within .003", averaging slightly better. The side extensions are generally flat within .003", but there is one dip that is out .006" They are milled the with the same finish the table. I have not mounted the extensions, so I cannot comment on the overall flatness and alignment of the top assembled.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw09.jpg
Certainly nothing like the Delta jointer I bought a couple years ago.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw11.jpg
There is a curious bracket inside the saw, which from all appearances will prevent a blade from being mounted. It's not mentioned in the instructions, and since I didn't get a fricken parts manual, I don't know what it is yet, or whether I am supposed to remove it. Probably has to do with stiffening the carriage for shipping. Check out the table finish, under the gooey stuff.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw10.jpg
On the plus side, the fence, rails, extension table and legs are all new items. As is the disposable Chinese blade - it should work fine for cutting up 2x4's. The Forest Woodworker II is coming off the old contractor saw tomorrow.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw08.jpg
I checked for interference with the motor and such, plugged it in, and fired it up. It thumped like a cold nylon bias-ply tire for a several seconds but smoothed out after a few more. The belts had been sitting in the same spot for over a year according to the serial number - no wait, THERE ISN'T ONE - according to the date on the refurb sticker.
Haven't got time tonight to clean it up and REALLY go over it, but so far, it's seems functional - but that table is damned rough.
The cabinet is clean, the accessories new, the price was considerably cheaper than the NEW Unisaw. You can't blame Delta for the damage to the shaft which was probably caused by the shipper slamming the unit into the side of the truck cargo bay, thereby ripping the pallet holdowns from the base and bending the shaft. I CAN blame Delta for not providing a stack of captive cardboard or high density foam to protect it. And lumpy belts are just the nature of rubber belts that have sat for an extended period. I believe they will smooth out once it is fully assembled and run in. I'll perform the infamous dime test later on. (Inflation, ya know.)
My initial impression is that the Grizzly 1023SL table finish is looking pretty good at this point, but I am still fearful of shipping damage with these as well. And I was able to place my hands on the Delta immediately. But the poor table finish leaves me somewhat disappointed.
Lest you think I am a Delta basher, have a look at this. The Taiwanese imports were excellent. And I've put up with some marginal quality on some of their Chinese stuff, simply to support them, and Norm, and PBS, and a US based company - in hopes that things would get better. But my loyalty has been wavering. I have a Jet lathe and some Dewalt and Bosch tools, but Delta has been the mainstay.
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/unisaw12.jpg
I'm not soliciting sympathy, or support, or even comments from the wREC. This is an hour wasted simply as a public service - to save others from any unexpected surprises should they decide to purchase one of these saws.
And pardon me for being concerned, but I like to buy things that are Made in America. Even if many of the parts are imported. It's nice to see my neighbors working and able to afford food and overpriced heating oil. Hell, I'll be eating rice and beans for the next year...
Granted, I've been a bit harsh, and the saw will probably run fine for many years. But the fit and finish are not quite up to the standards I expected from the grand old name of Unisaw. But you get what you pay for - minus stock commissions.
I'll do a thorough test & alignment after I decide what to do with it. The table, although certainly flat enough for woodworking, is in serious need of some polishing. And it looks like I'll have to tear down the mech and replace that blasted bent shaft, 'cause there's no way I'm loading this thing back up to swap for another unit. And allowing another trained monkey to hammer shafts into place is not even a realistic consideration. It'll give me a chance to "bond".
There is no better way to understand the inner workings of a machine than to tear it down and put it back together again. Then, when or if something goes wrong, or you hear a funny sound, you know exactly what it is and what to do about it - saving yourself time, energy, and quite possibly, serious bodily injury.
I guess I've got to think up a name for her...
Was Halloween full of horror this year? You decide!
Greg G.
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Argh! Thanks for the experience Greg. What a shame to have to put up with some of the workmanship issues that came packaged in that box. I don't care what a saw sells for new, or that it's reconditioned - $1200 is still $1200, no matter how you cut it. At that price I would expect quality. With that name, I would expect quality. You're too forgiving with your willingness to take on some of the issues yourself - bent shaft, sharp edges, etc. Or maybe I'm not forgiving enough, but I would have expected better quality than that for the money.
I'm sure it's far better than your "cheap old contractor saw", and it will probably sit well in the middle of the floor when it's all done, but this kind of stuff makes it a slower path to that satisfaction of going out there just before bed time and turning on the lights just one more time for a quick look.
All the same - congratulations on making one of those long awaited purchases.
--

-Mike-
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Dont know where you are located but if you are in California there is some good news. Didnt look like it form your pics. California requires all manufactures that distribute electrical/electronic products in the state to provide either (a) on-site warranty service, or (b) arrange and pay for pick up and delivery, for any item that is large and/or heavy such that a single person cannot reasonable move it themselves. In California, Delta is responsible to come to your place and picking up the saw or repairing it were it sits, or Delta must buy it back at the full cost that you paid for it.
This is an opportunity to mention that every state has different laws regarding warranties. Everyone should know their states laws. Federal law prohibits any manufacture of goods from arbitrarily limiting the fitness of a product they sell (including refurbd), or from disclaiming liability for incidental damages, i.e. if a $300 piece of teak is ruined due to a defect with a warantied machine, the manufacture can be made to compensate you for that piece of wood. Everyone should also review the federal Magnuson Moss Act, the federal law regarding warranties, liability, etc, but it also varies by state.
Greg - so, was the $250 savings worth (a) a peend motor spindle, (b) a wonky tilt adjustment shaft, (c) no birth certificate (serial number), (d) your 10-mile drive, (e) you having to unload and move around that critter, (f) photocopy of a manual, and (g) no parts diagram? You were told in your other thread you could get the same saw, BRAND NEW, with the ext table and mobile base, delivered to your shop for only $250 more.
On the last page of your photocopied manual should be instructions to use WD-40 and a 3M Scotch Brite blending hand pad on the table surface before using. Obviously wont take out the tooling marks but it goes a long way to smoothing the surface. Dont know but I would guess it knocks down micro burrs. They also say to use Top Cote on the table, you decide.
In your pic #9 I dont have a clue what that weird-assed bracket is. I have the same saw, just checked, nothing similar to it anywhere in mine.
Don't know what blade you got but the std Delta blade is part # 34-105. It's printed on the blade.
Btw, very nice shop you've put together.
--
joe2


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joe2 said:

No, don't live in California - about as far from it as you can get. Although we do visit there several times a year. We live in a backwards Southern US red state. You know, the one that has that idiot, Newt Gingrich, in it. Not many consumer laws to speak of at all. The plutocrats pretty much run things around here.
And haven't had time to talk to the dealer, scrub it off, or much of anything else, other that open it up. Work and trick-or-treaters ya know.
And I REALLY would prefer to fix it myself. I enjoy that sort of thing. I don't want a Delta rep or anyone else doing it. I simply don't trust them. Mechanics are animals in this part of the world. Too many people worried more about slap it out, not quality. Would you want someone else to service your old lady?
I believe that if I can overhaul an 8 cylinder, dual overhead cam, Mercedes engines, Ford 4 speed auto transmissions, or repair Tektronics 100mhz 4 ch. military oscilloscopes, I think I can handle some silly ass table saw.

There are many reasons I chose to buy locally. I prefer to buy locally, for the same reasons I prefer to not to buy Chinese stuff.
AND, I can't get a UPS package delivered 50% of the time without the box being crushed. I wasn't EVEN going to take the chance of having a 500lb saw delivered in one piece by some third rate freight company.
Hey, look at the trouble a dealer has in getting a truck full of them delivered one piece - what chance do you think I stand.
So, to answer you're question. I don't know yet. The fat lady hasn't sung.

In the store, it looked like a dust deflector. On mine, it may have been assembled improperly, it interferes with the blade.

Thanks. It sort of works for me, but there are too many darned doors.
Greg G.
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The bent shaft is appalling, but was probably an accident. The bashed mounting rods I see in one photo are outrageous! I can't imagine how this was let out of the shop.
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Battleax said:

Shipper's can be like that sometimes. There was nothing protecting the shaft, it was bound to happen - after all, it's the one I bought. :-\ A block of foam probably would have prohibited this damage.
But the rod makes me a little nervous - makes one wonder what else is wrong. That's why I'm headed out there right now to check it out more thoroughly.
Thanks,
Greg G.
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joe2 said:

Well, to begin with, the price difference more like $300. There is no mobile base included with either saw, I don't believe the saw they are selling is the same saw, they are the older 36-830A, and your quote doesn't include a portion of the packing/delivery charges (They are giving you the heavy freight surcharge) or the time and aggravation of shipping problems. (Although it now appears I didn't come out too well on that aspect either.)
And after searching their site for 5 minutes or so, I never found a physical address for this company - which leads me to believe they are a drop shipper. Which means that the product could come from any one of dozens of vendors anywhere in the US. - with the associated problems of varying dealer competence. I'd order a measuring tape or something to check out their service before I would blindly order a product of this size from an unfamiliar web site.
And as I stated before, I tend to prefer doing business with local vendors - I like my neighbors to eat. Not some unknown halfway across the country. Perhaps that comes off as old-school, but I grew up in a different era - when people gave a shit about their neighbors, rather than the Chinese or Koreans.
So, was it worth it? Probably - they have alread called and offer a new saw. Hauling it around? That part sucks no matter what the consequences.
As for the self-righteous tone - it sucks as well. :-)
Greg G.
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Greg G. Wrote:

(a) the diff is closer to $300, was $250 diff a month ago, (b) there is/was a mobile base included, 50-273 for the saw and 50-284 mobile extension base for the extension table, (c) dont know exactly what model Unisaw I got. Printed on the cardboard cover is for the 36-830L and 36-831L and below that in big letters is 36-953. The accompanying documentation all says 36-953. My saws serial number is 05G107xxx. Perhaps someone on the forum knows how to extrapolate the manf date from the serial number?!?, (d) there are NO PACKING AND DELIVER CHARGES. All over that web site is/was text indicating free shipping and delivery of any Unisaw. Don't know if it is still the same. However, as I noted in a previous post, there was something like a $13 booking fee I had to pay. So I guess you could say s&h was $13 TOTAL, (e) there are no shipping problems. You order your Unisaw, sit back, and a week later it shows up at your door. The shipper uses one of those pallet jacks to move it wherever you want it put, (f) I dont believe WWS is a drop shipper, they have 3 retail store. They certainly aren't a drop shipper for Delta products. When I talked to them they specifically said they have regular delivery trucks running from Delta to one of three distribution points in the US. They told me they would prefer to drop ship the Unisaws because they sell so many of them, but Delta will not drop ship any products.
-In business for three decades, Woodworker's Supply provides top quality woodworking tools, machinery, abrasives, adhesives, hardware, accessories and wood specialty products to customers, worldwide, from stores and distribution centers in Casper, Wyoming, Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Graham, North Carolina.-
I don't have any particular like or dislike for WWS. It just happens they have/had the best price on a new Unisaw when I was buying, shipping cost considered. But that may change at any time. I did check locally and the same Unisaw was a few hundred bucks more, and state sales tax applies on top of that, and I would have to pay extra for someone to move it. I dont mind paying a little extra to buy locally, but I wont play the fool. I cant see putting someone's kid thru college while trying to justify 'feeding my neighbors'. If they want to eat steak and lobster, the neighbors need to consider a more competitive business model.
Ironically, the problems you had with your Unisaw purchase impress me as unjustified. That saw should never have been allowed to be sold, but it was by the very neighbors you are trying to feed.
--
joe2

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joe2 said:

It's slightly OVER $300 at this point. Things change...

Apparently not any more... Things change...

Does it say DeltaX in big letter on the front of the saw? Probably the same saw inside, but it IS different. Frank would know about the serials.
But from what I know about the serial numbers, you got the new Chinese castings...

I punched it in - put it in my cart - and went to checkout. They charge a crating/packing fee...
You don't know if it's the same?!?! I just told you... Things change... My father paid .25 for a loaf of bread...

I didn't want to wait a week. I needed it today.

I am not in the Northeast of California or the Midwest. There is NOTHING much here... It would have been shipped long distance FTF.

I have no idea, but I'll take that into consideration. They should put that info on their web site - I didn't see it.

Thanks for the interest. I'm not trying to bust your chops over this, but I did consider WWS and decided not to buy.
I think I'll look for a good used one for the next 10 years...
Greg G.
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Mike Marlow said:

Well, some of my criticisms are pretty well know - like the blade guard and splitter. Otherwise an aftermarket industry would not exist to address these weak points. They DO have to built a product to hit a certain price point, but I still feel that guards are an overlooked and underdeveloped item - in ALL brands.
The only real complaints I had were the bent blade angle shaft, which is not the vendor or Delta's fault - but the shipper's, the somewhat rough table surface - even though it is very flat, and that beat-up metal rod. Apparently, the internal dust deflector was improperly installed as well - no biggy, but a bit disconcerting.

Yea, it was disappointing to see that bent worm screw shaft. Kinda precludes setting it up and using it until it is dealt with.
But I can't quite see myself "tucking it in" before bedtime. ;-) Then again, I've not got it set up and actually USED the darned thing. It might just change my perspective. ;-) It IS kinda pretty just sitting there and all...

Thanks, (even though my projects will be built with twobafours for a while)
Woodlessly Yours,
Greg G.
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I think a valuable lesson here is to check out machines before taking them home. I see new Uni's at the local WW shop for about $1400, so the savings don't seem all that great on th erefurb??
I bought my big planer from an outfit in Charlotte, NC which has their Taiwan stuff made to order, with personal involvement of the Leneave family. It's great and looks just like many of the others, but was only about $800 for 15". They say they have a comparable cabinet saw, which was $1000 a year or so ago. Of course fuel and iron prices have probably hit it by now. It's Leneave Machinery&Supply, if anyone wants to do a GS and talk to them. I like the family involvement and I think they are honest. Of course they have all the other tools too. I think they serve mostly industrial companies but they are very nice on the phone.
Wilson

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Wilson wrote:

We may have had this conversation before (I'm not sure) but I bought a 8" North State jointer from them last year. It's a kind of hole in the wall place but the man definitely knows his business and he's personable. I'd second your recommendation.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

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Wilson said:

Left tilt, 52" Bies fence, outboard table, two iron extension wings? For $1400? There isn't that much competition down here...
As for checking it out, I asked to, but they were in a hurry to go. They quit at 5:00pm and it was 4:00pm. Complained about having to unstack units with a fork lift, yadda, yadda...
Actually, the lesson (for me) is to ignore their whining and do it anyway.

I wanted to buy an American product. Even if only parts of it are.
Thanks,
Greg G.
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Since you took the time to do this I'll take the time to comment.

Yes
Press on...

Required by UL. Your choice to leave it on. Cover will stay on without it with the spring clips.

If you are talking about the blade you have pictured in your picture of accessories, it is very high quality blade manufactured by Leitz in Germany. you may have also gotten a stamped steel blade mounted on the unit, and if so probably Vermont American. UL requires the inclusion of a blade. Many of the competitors are NOT UL LISTED AND THEREFORE DO NOT HAVE TO SUPPLY A BLADE AND MOST DON'T.
The extension table is nothing special, and has rough lumber

Once again, UL issue. UL requires that the blade guard fall of its own accord when the insert is back in and the saw is operational. If you don't take the extra pains to be UL listed you don't have to follow this rule. And all standard guards of of a similar design except that the non UL listed units don't have to follow the auto drop rule.

tilt watch is to indicate an uncontrolled tip over on someone's shipping dock or warehouse. There was an earlier post where someone was advised not to lay the saw over to change a sub base. It is not a problem. you just cant let it free fall tilt. No saw could stand that.

How can you tell?
It appears that a large monkey with a sledge hammer has

Arrogant, insulting and and innappropriate comment. The motor shaft has been driven in

sure that is relevant.

Many dealers are small and not set up to access computer data base. They would honor a warranty based on the original serial number. The warranty for reconditioned equipment different. It is a simple system to make sure that the appropriate warranty applies.

Did you put a profilometer on it? The grind is a rotary wheel, reciprcating table grind with a wheel large enough to cover the whole table. It leaves a different profile than a blanchard grind (rotary wheel, rotary table) or an engine grind (horizontal shaft wheel over a linear feed table). Light reflection and pattern are different. I would be willing to bet that would measure as good as whatever you are comparing it to and well within the specifications.
RMS measurement is the statistical diference between the peaks and valleys of a surface. each method provides a different pattern and different light reflection many times with the sam RMS measurement. I've compared some blanchard or engine surfaces that were three times worse that the rotary/recip and would have sworn they were the same.

Outstanding. That is exactly what the factory trys to achieve. As close to flush as possible without being above the table.
The edges of the

Once again, outstanding. Well within the specifications in fact in the top statistical quadrant depending on the direction measured.
The side extensions are generally flat within .003",

Probably will be very good and well within specifications. However, you seem to be very particular and if you want perfection you can always use shim stock to achieve that.

See comment above talking about the different types of grind processes

Black U formed channel? Saw dust diverter. keeps the sawdust going down instead of back up through the insert. However, from your picture it may be installed improperly. Are the spacers on the inside of the channel? I can't really tell, but if they are it is wrong. Should be on the outside of the channel spaced off the front trunion.

See comment above. If you are pitching that Leitz blade, I'll take it.
- it should work fine

Will stay smooth with regular use, will take a set if it sits. will smooth back out with use.

Very good to see. Now for a larger shop............

A touch.
and the saw will probably run fine for

I'll be glad to walk you through that shaft replacement if you need help.
. And

See comment above. Repeat here.
to hammer shafts into place is not

If you are going to take it apart, I certainly hope you have the proper instruments to set the blade alignment and distance from the slot after the fact. It may seem right until you tilt the blade to 45. The dimensional zone is fairly small.

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Frank Boettcher said:

Same here. Since I am a consumer, I don't have to pussyfoot around the facts. I don't take advertising dollars or have stock in the company. I am not insulting you personally or the heritage of Delta.
You seem like a pleasant, knowledgeable fellow, and as I commented on in an earlier post, your anecdotes of life at the factory are music to my ears. But you have to admit that you DO come off as just a wee bit Pro-Delta.
But there are a lot of products in the market, and competition is what drives innovation and improvement. Instead of mistaking observations as personal attacks, you might consider improving the factors that precipitated the complain and fixing them.
This not a Delta forum, and it is not moderated, so no one here has to be concerned with offending ANY manufacturer with his opinion. Heck, we talk about and bash Jet's, Powermatics, Harbor Freight, and everything else under the sun.
Me thinks you may have some difficulty seeing the forest for the trees, however. I understand you love Delta, you have spent a portion of your life dedicated to producing the best products you could, contingent on marketplace forces and board of director's whims.
None of my comments should be taken personally by you or anyone else. With that said...

Yes - from numerous foreign components.
To me, final assembly does not fully equate to "Made in USA." I understand why components are imported, it's just a shame. I grew up in a time when everything I bought was completely Made in the USA. Switches, motors, hardware - EVERYTHING!
It's getting to the point that MFGs are considering putting an imported Chinese item into a box - Made in USA.
And I swear, if I open up another box of deformed, crappy Chinese nails, I'm gonna scream!
But I knew this going in...

Remember this is the store floor model I am discussing here, not my saw. Mine didn't have a screw on it at all - they forgot to replace it, or it fell out in shipping. And it's not in the bag, either. The cover was just laying next to the saw when uncrated. The clips failed to retain the motor cover during shipping.

It's a 35-617 blade. If you can tell that from that crummy picture, your eyes are better than mine - But I'll take your word for it, since they didn't bother to print a country of origin on it.
I still prefer the WWII, however. Most of the other blades I have gotten from Delta have been serviceable, but not great. They hold an edge well, but splinter more than I care for. I don't expect perfection from an OEM blade. I haven't actually USED the blade, because the saw is not functional, so I didn't comment on the quality of cut. But the printing sure looks Chinese to me - where did they print the logo on the blade?

But nevertheless, it's a flaky, cost-cutting design. One display model had a longer retaining tab, and it did work better, but this one has had the tab reduced in height. It doesn't stay up if you breath on it hard.
If this is the best manufacturers can come up with, then someone needs to approach UL about revising it's requirements, because this design leads to it being removed from the saw - not what they had in mind.

I'm not revealing the dealer until I have fully evaluated the transaction. I'm not out to slam anyone needlessly.

I fully understand that - and also understand the necessity of such a device - as I commented to in one of your earlier posts.

I've been a mechanic and electronics tech for 40 years, you can tell these things. Bolt heads, paint chips, damaged ends on shafts, etc.

Perhaps, but I'm not personally attacking you. If a shaft is peened over, and looks like it has been driven in with a hammer, then it probably was.
But maybe you are right, perhaps I should instead insult Delta for not providing this workman with the proper tools to do the job. Is it standard procedure to hammer a shaft into place, thereby deforming the end of the shaft? Not in any shop I've been at.
This brings to mind a guy laying on his back in a dark warehouse, with a hammer in one hand, and cursing the weight of the unit under his breath as he attempts to meet a production quota.
Is that better?

You can sell a lot of crap to a lot of people in this country, but that doesn't mean it's quality. The motor does appear to be well made and very heavy.

I understand the logistics of the situation, but I still feel that removing the number is a bad idea. For instance, I will have difficulty selling this saw if I ever decide to. Insurance companies baulk at insuring an item that has no serial number, or worse, if it is defaced. There are other reasons as well, but I think you get the idea.
As for warrantee service, I have no intention of ever letting anyone else work on my equipment. I repair my own cars, re-roof and re-side my own house, write my own software, repair my own TVs and VCRs, repair my own plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc.
Of course, Delta has no way of knowing this beforehand...

Don't happen to have on of those in my back pocket. ;-) But I don't need a profilometer to know it is considerably worse than the tables on display. It is flat, and even, but the grind is heavy.
The method of grinding used is irrelevant to the surface roughness, only to the pattern it leaves behind - all other factors being the same. The stone used to cut the table appears to have been rough, as there are alternating deeper and shallower grooves repeated throughout the cyclic mill pattern.
I didn't use the reflected light pattern to determine the roughness. I used real-world things like my fingernail and a block of wood.
But I can put my hands on a laser photomicrometer that can discern point source difference in height of around .00005". I doubt they'll let me take it home, however.
However, the ultimate appearance of the saw table is the first thing that a woodworker sees, and a rough surface - to the hand or to the eye - is a definite turn-off to a prospective buyer of a new saw.

Root Mean Square. A weighted algorithmic procedure for determining the overall average value of things like AC waveforms, mechanical aberrations, etc. It comes up a lot in the electronic work I do...
Again, appearance wasn't the criteria. Limitation of the medium... I can't post a photo enabling you to feel physical roughness.

Not really a problem, just less clearance than I am used to. But a tolerance of .001" is pretty tight, considering that, as you state, the table may move over time. Cast iron is funny like that.

Very Flat, yes - I am happy that the table is so true. Sharp edges, a negative factor. Nothing that can't be fixed with a few swipes of a file, but still they are sharp and a potential safety factor. And I felt the need to relate this fact.

Yes, I have no complaints about the flatness of the table, especially considering what I have been using. And I have no doubt that the extension table may need to be shimmed. I have plenty of brass and Teflon stock of varying thicknesses.
Getting two (or three) individually milled cast iron slabs to line up is an exercise in patience and finesse.

That is what the display model looked like, a dust diverter. And I even commented that, "Hey that's a good idea, a dust diverter." But the one mounted on mine interferes with the blade - it's off center with the arbor.
There are two hex head bolts holding it to the mech. There are spacers between the bolt heads and the 'U-Channel", which is directly in contact with the trunnion. But since it's not in the manual - or in the non-existent parts breakout, I don't know for sure...

Nah, I'll give it a shot. As I said, I don't expect perfection from an OEM blade, and I can use it on lesser projects to protect my nice WWII. I do, however have a few Dewalt blades you are welcome to.

Sure, I figured, and stated, as much. If I sat for a year in one position, I would have trouble running smoothly as well. ;-)
I've only run the saw for 20 seconds or so - long enough to check out the GPE switch for function and power fail shutoff and to insure that the motor ran properly.

Boy, you've got that part right! I have to clean up every time I do anything, and it is an impediment to completing any project. Tripping over things while surrounded by sharp, hard metal power tools is not my way of working. Way too many doors as well.

Perhaps - but no malice implied. Just an objective overview.

You might point out any caveats, but I'm pretty handy mechanically.

Sarcasm . Get used to it - Usenet is total anarchy. Emily Post doesn't visit here to teach good manners...
Besides, you haven't seen some of the mechanics I've worked with over the years - where 'trained monkey' was an insult to the monkey. A bit colorful, but don't take it so personally. ;-)

I understand. I know designers go to great lengths to come up with designs that will maintain proper symmetry while tilting the blade AND supporting 300 pounds of weight - over and over and over...
I assume Starrett micrometers, dial indicators, depth gauges and various other machinist's measuring tools will suffice?
If not, tell me now and make the decision of accepting the dealer's offer of another saw much easier. God only know how I'll get that thing back onto the truck, however.
And does the original manual or parts list contain an overview of saw alignment? If not, where do I get a copy that does? That is a definite requirement of ownership for any machinery.
Thanks,
Greg G.
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Greg, your original post was heavily slanted to the negative and I offered the truth in areas where your assumptions were wrong (cheap chinese blade, table ground so far that the clearance was only .001", UL/CSA which is a good thing, being the reason for design issues, true measurement of the grind, etc.).
Your saw, with the exception of the WEG motor was manufactured in the USA. The machining, sheet metal fabrication, welding, painting, assembly were all done in America.
I am pro Delta, but I make it a point to not slam any competitor of Delta. I have many friends in the industry, who are knowledgeable, good people.
I will only post what I know to be the truth when a question is asked or I see something posted that is not true.
It is usenet and it is unmoderated and total anarchy. You asked in an earlier post why the company might not participate in this venue. That is exactly the reason. While most on this group are serious woodworkers ready to offer advice and opinions, it has its share of trolls and sockpuppets. Companies have other venues to answer questions and offer help without getting into that quagmire.
In your case, I might suggest that you purchase another brand if you are so dissatisfied. And possibly move from the state of Georgia since one of your posts cast dispersion on the people who live there.
However, If you wish to dissassemble and repair this saw or replace it with another Delta Unisaw and you have issues with it, my offer to help still stands.
Frank

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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:44:01 -0600, Frank Boettcher
[snip]

Whenever I've gotten this recommedation, I always take them up on it.
BTW, 14 months ago I posted the following:
I used to own a 15-year old Craftsman contractor's saw. With a little adjustment, the blade was parallel with the miter gauge slots, the two open rib cast iron extension wings were perfectly flush with the table top and the arbor run-out, measured at the base of the blade gullets was 0.003". The fence sucked but I learned to compensate and live with it. With only one hp, rip cuts on hardwood were---excuse the pun---hard, but doable. Being completely open, dust was a big annoyance. Nevertheless, using the saw I built a 1200 sq ft addition to my house, a few cabinets and all the other little things a home handyman does.
Recently I've become more interested in doing some simple furniture building and some kitchen and bath remodeling so I figured I could factor the cost of new tooling into the *alleged* cost saving of DIY.
Thus I succumbed to the siren call of the CABINET SAW and decided to buy one. But which one? Using comments in this forum, product reviews, etc. etc, I decided for various reasons to buy American and get me one of them Unisars.
In other threads I railed against what I perceived as lousy quality control and the fact (in my mind) that manufactures didn't sell saws, they sold saw kits; a bunch of parts that needed to be finished by the sucker-err---buyer, to complete the construction. I gotta a lot of flack over that one so without further ado or editorial comment follows the ongoing story of the Delta Unisaw...
1. Decided to buy locally (glad I did) from Woodcraft during their March 10% off sale. Went with a 30" Biesemeyer fence and Delta mobile base. Paid all of $15 extra for home delivery.
2. Week later, saw arrives. Two Woodcraft guys deliver in PU truck with no lift gate. Call next-door neighbor over and four of us skid it down a couple of 4x4s without incident. Tilt indicator was bright red before unloading and big hole in box but no apparent damage. Sell Craftsman saw to neighbor for hundred bucks.
3. Manage to single-handedly get saw off pallet onto mobile base. Work stops here during three-week trip.
4. Back home, back to assembly. Options are: open all boxes and do inventory and then lose parts before they are needed; or, wait until parts are needed to open boxes. Choose second option.
5. Assemble left-hand cast iron extension wing. Doesn't line up. Make it flush with the table front and rear and it sags 8 thou midway along the joint line although one inch back from the front, the extension is proud 4 thou. Left front outside edge of extension droops 20 thou.
6. Call Wendy at Woodcraft. She says Delta will drop ship replacement to me. Work stops for a week.
7. UPS man brings new extension wing. This one is worse than the original! The finish is horrible. On both wings, it appears than when the grinding wheel was introduced to the iron there was a lot of chatter. The first couple of inches bear witness to this by being very rough and showing the wheel marks. If I eat enough Wheaties, I can turn this thing upside down and use it as a wood rasp. Say to hell with it and reinstall original extension wing. Determine that part of the misalignment is an artifact of the main table having a high spot at the left front edge. Aligning the wing to this spot creates misalignment along the rest of the interface. Use flat grinding stone to hone this high spot down and fiddle fart around until I figure it's good enough.
8. Install front and rear angle supports. Instructions say that front support that holds rip fence rail must be installed to exact dimension of 2 27/32" below table top. No way in hell will this happen without enlarging mounting holes in table top. Start elongating holes with rat-tail file. Slow going. Decide that since angle surface is too low, another option would be to add shims between angle and fence rail. Bolt on fence rail using " flat washers as shims. Works dandy.
9. Time to mount the laminate extension table. Manual says, and photos show, mounting of "Z-bracket". No Z-bracket to be found in boxes. Call Woodcraft. They say they will call Delta and call back. Next day after not hearing from Woodcraft, I call Delta. Guy says, "Oh, the Z-bracket isn't used with Beisemeyer fence, the manual is wrong." While I have him on the phone I mention misalignment of fence rail. He says, 'Be glad that it's too low, that way you can use shims for alignment, some of them are too high then you have a real problem." Lucky me! I also mention extension wing problem. He says he will send another.
10. Ten days later, UPS man comes with extension wing. The box is completely shredded and it is obvious that somewhere along the line, the extension has exited the box and landed on a corner against a hard object. Besides the bent corner, the finish is as rough as the others. Unless Delta sends somebody out to retrieve this one, I now have a heavy-duty surface plate of questionable accuracy.
End quote. Non-editorial mode -off-.
It appears to me that Greg has been fair and balanced.
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Wes Stewart said:

I have already done so.
Even though he is not a representative of Delta at this time, I did take him at his word that they were repaired with quality in mind.
It was, however, refurbished on his watch, according to the September 28, 2004 refurb date. So... there you have it - lip service.
Heck, for all I know, he is a 19 year old troll who isn't really who he claims to be - this IS Usenet. But I don't believe so.
Don't get me wrong, aside from one emotional off-color comment, I still think he is OK, and has something to contribute to the group. To be honest, I had never seen one of his posts due to a hiatus from the group, and have only recently returned. (It's fall now, it's just too darned hot-n-humid out there in the middle of a southern summer. Too many other things to do.)

Ugghh.... Please, don't use that PARTICULAR expression... ;-)
Greg G.
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Missed this one first time around but it deserves comment

The last Unisaw was manufactured in the Tupelo factory (Under my watch so to speak) was in May of 2004. I own the saw. It was signed by each person who worked on it. Unfortunately it was submerged by Hurricane Katrina and is slowly being recovered. If you want verification you can go to yahoo groups, deltawoodworking, pictures, last unisaw and see for yourself. There are no 19 year old trolls, or trained monkeys in the picture, only a dedicated group of people who averaged 30+ years of service.
The last refurb on Unisaws was done in Tupelo (under my watch) in the same month.
From that point the refurb was transferred to Jackson, TN, not under my watch. My assmumption was that they were similarly re
From May until the plant was finally closed in March of 2005 the Tupelo facility was only manufacturing castings for the U.S. made product.
I could immediately tell that it was not refurbed under my watch because it was reboxed. We did not do that. We put the saw completely together, aligned it, tested it under power then strapped it to an oversize pallet and waited for the distributor to pick it up. We refused to ship our refurb LTL. The dealer you bought your saw from will verify this and the level of quality that came from my refurb operation. He wanted to hired my refurb leadman. His name is Jerry.
And, following up on one of your comments in an earlier post, I do not own stock in Delta (would be Black & Decker now) and am not paid by them in any way shape or form.
I am terribly sorry that your saw was problematic and you feel that you were not treated fairly by your dealer and by Delta. I hope you find what you want.
Frank \

One can only wish
troll who isn't really who

????? I

I'm so relieved.

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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 16:20:25 -0600, Frank Boettcher

So you were there when my DJ-20 and X5 Bandsaw were made? Both were missing large, heavy, metal parts.
Tell me, how can a radio control car kit manufacturer, like Team Losi <http://www.teamlosi.com/ or Team Associated <http://www.teamassociated.com/ , weigh a box and tell if a (2) 3mmscrews are missing from a 10 pound box (hint, they can...), but Delta can't tell if a box is missing 10 or 25 pound from a 100 pound box?
It seems that every box should weigh very nearly the same. Perhaps Delta needs to weigh boxes before shipment. <G>

I wish you luck cleaning up after the hurricane. What a mess...
Barry
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