How to heat a 9 x 16 uninsulated shed? Suggestions sought.

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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote

to have misplaced the link. It comes in cardboard boxes. Each box covers so many square feet. There is some kind of nozzle/applicator that you hook up to it. The chemical reaction moves the foam into the space and expands it. One time application, of course! There is no way to use part of a box.
I am certain, though it is probably a very good product, that is expensive.
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Old Guy wrote:

Rigid foam panels glued on with construction adhesive, the kind that comes in caulking gun size?
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Hi all,
Thanks for the ideas about insulating my cold storage shop.
Maybe some folks have used some of this stuff and have been happy with it. I have serious reservations about the various suggestions.
I looked at the spray stuff, and don't like the results. The final surface is rough, and will collect dust, no matter what i do. And it is soft, so any impact will make it look worse. But worst of all, even if there is goop mixed in the insulation to make it not flammable, if some of my wood stock burns next to it it gives off a witch's brew of fumes. I've been in a gas chamber twice in the military, I don't want to repeat the experience in my shop.
There's the same set of problems with adhering foam panels, even with a foil facing. They give off some stuff that you don't want to breathe when there's a fire. And adhering 1/2" sheetrock to them (which is the standard for protection) could be done, but the panels would NEVER be in alignment.
I think the foil faced bubble insulation is less noxiious, but I still have soft walls. (Not ready for a padded cell....yet).
If someone has some experience they can offer, I'd appreciate any and all stories.
Old Guy

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In article

My shed is only 6ftx6ft (space limited) and built about 20 years ago. It was constructed by making 6ft wide frames of 2x2 and well creosoted. Heavy duty polythene was stapled to cover each frame, before nailing on the feather-edge boarding. Each frame had two additional 2x2 uprights, effectively creating three vertical panels a little under 2ft wide. It was skinned on the inside with 1/8" hardboard.
It was later insulated with fibreglass which was available in the UK in "pads", approx 2" thick and approx 2ft wide. I forget the length. This was just a little wider than than the space between the uprights.
The original hardboard skin was removed and the fibreglass pressed in between the uprights. There was sufficient friction to hold the pads in place until the hardboard skin was replaced.
The roof, which was "flat", was 3/4" T&G floorboards supported on 2x2 battens placed at the same intervals as the side members and I was able to do the same here. The roof didn't previously have anything on the inside so 3/8" stirling board was used to support the fibreglass.
The shed is heated with a 300W electric panel heater mounted on the rear wall, controlled by a thermostat on one of the side walls. The thermostat is normally set at about 5 degree C as a "frost" precaution but can be adjusted if I need to work in there, though these days it is used only for storage.
Hardboard is nice and smooth and the whole interior was painted white.
It seems to work well. The shed has no windows as it was originally constructed for use as a darkroom but a ventilation fan was installed in the back wall, also on a separate thermostat, to prevent it becoming a sauna in the summer. Actually, I have found that it can actually be cooler in there in the summer than the outside temperature - presumably because the insulation works both ways - as long as I keep it shut up!
Stuart
--
Stuart Winsor

Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
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There's the same set of problems with adhering foam panels, even with a foil facing. They give off some stuff that you don't want to breathe when there's a fire.
************************************************************
You mean if your shop is on fire you're going to stand inside and watch it? Head down wind and inhale the aroma?
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Ed,
No, not intentionally.
But I won't build a hazard to myself or others.
Old Guy

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4 infra red heat lamps and a small radiant propane heater a pair of flannel lined jeans ($50) and insulated shoes from LL Bean ($70) and a stocking cap. Add a chore jacket, a sweatshirt and a pair of gloves 4 rubber mats ($20)"
Wow, sounds like you spent a lot of time and money insulating yourself and on five heaters. And will spend considerable $$ on electricity and propane.
All that worry about the fumes the insulation might give off in case of a fire is interesting. My worry would be the burnt tools before the nasty gases. A fire would seem even less likely in a well-insulated shop where small safe electric low-draw electric heaters could create a comfortable environment. Tractor supply has stall mats on sale for $29 (4'x6') (Black Friday) that will insulate and provide comfort and are durable as the dickens - can go on dirt or gravel as well as concrete, of course).
If the shed is sound, you can use 1 x 4's to "frame in" for the insulation as they are not bearing walls. Or 2 x 2's and use that two- inch thick foam board and construction adhesive. If you are a woodworker with the tools, none of this should be a larger effort than dealing with cold steel handled tools and all that bulky clothing.
You can also consider adding to the exterior of the metal shed - wrap it in Tyvek - or equivalent, sheath it with oil-impregnated sheathing wrap it again with Tyvek and add vinyl siding. Either way, you want to create a relatively tight envelope for you and your tools. ZTHen a smaller heater will be "killer."
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In my reading round. I discovered the notion of carrying the walls down with a flared "skirt" of concrete sheeting, lined with rigid foam and buried a foot or so into the ground. This is the new thinking in Scandanavian building, apparently.
The skirting traps geothermal heat and directs it upwards, and all things being equal this raises the cold weather building temperature by around 16 degrees.. (presume F, not C)
That's a pretty compelling argument, don'tya think?
I suspect that wooden floors would be better than concrete, but that might just be "common sense" kicking in where it shouldn't (like "heavier objects obviously hit the ground before lighter objects" type common sense,)
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Would you happen to have an internet site or two to share with us? My sister's garage is due for replacement next summer, and free heat is always welcome inside a building.
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
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On Nov 23, 4:59�pm, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
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Most stuff on the web is concerned with active systems - digging bore-holes and pumping ground heat up into buildings. There are brief mentions here and there of insulation for passive gains, but I'm finding them hard to track down as it's stuff I came across while word-association surfing and didn't bookmark anything. However...
The main reference was from the book
Sheds: The Do-It-Yourself Guide for Backyard Builders (Paperback) by David Stiles (Author), Jeanie Stiles (Author)
(Amazon.com product link shortened)- Builders/dp/1554072247/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid27509805&sr=8-3
but it was only a paragraph or two and a line drawing
33newfrom$9.96 - (Amazon.com product link shortened)- listing/1554072247/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new
My scanner's dead, but I can copy out the relevant words if that's be helpful - ???
More 'techie" geothermal heating - requiring drilling and pumps - is mentioned briefly on: http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/adaptation/geothermail_energy.shtml http://www.tnddrilling.co.uk /
and wikipedia has some stuff.
I found this rather interesting, though it's pretty involved: http://www.thenaturalhome.com/earthtube.htm
There's a mention http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9wkgmem7NZUC&pg=PP1&dq=Building+an+Affordab le+House+By+Fernando+Pages#PPP8,M1
- scroll to page 57
I hope that's useful. Sorry I haven't got a simple reference or all-in-one page for you. I think this is a case of hitting on the right google-words serendipitously. and so far I've not been very successful.
It seems you can install a full heating system which would run at about 1/3 cost of a conventional system but the installation costs would be high and the return period similarly high.
The compromise effort would be to firstly "trap" a building's warm footprint and secondly, to pull ventilation in through ground or sun-warmed pipes.
My simpler take on this would be to stick a maze of black-painted pipe behind a sheet of glass (in the sun) and pull all your shop's air in through that maze, OR, if you have enough sunlight, knock up a solar panel from a radiator (black,) under glass, feeding a heat exchanger (coil of copper tube) surrounding your vent intake.
My father has run a water pre-heater panel for about 30 years. It won't get water _hot_ but it does prevent it from getting cold. Even in England Lat 52 ish, it helps, most of the year round. These things do work; not spectacularly, but effectively
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*snip useful references*

Thanks for the info. I'll pass the ideas on to the ones that are doing the deciding. It might be worth a bit of research, even if it only makes a 3 degree difference.
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as some
writers are incorrigible.
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KIMOSABE wrote:

I don't think you're asking for the impossible. No mater what source of heat you choose, the first step should be to make the shop reasonably tight and at least minimally insulated so that heat isn't lost as fast as you add it.
I have an obvious bias toward solar heat because it doesn't have any operating costs and because (at least during the day) it's already warm whenever you want to use it.
I have photos of a solar-heated shop building at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
It's larger than your shop, so just imagine it scaled down to the size of yours...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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wrote:

If space is so critical, start with the bubble foil insulation. It is not what I would use for a permanent installation, but at least it will, if properly installed - reduce air leaks. Put in on all the walls and the ceiling, use the metal (6N28) tape to seal the seams 3 passes on the seams works best (first right down the seam, the second to one side hitting on the tape and the bubble wrap, the third on the other side) and all the staple holes. Make sure it is air tight. Then weather strip the door(s) and caulk around the windows - I assume they are single pane - so use the winter insulation kits from the borg or wally-mart. Once that is done, you can use radiant electric heaters (Lee Valley has a nice one that is reasonably priced) that mount to the ceiling - 2 -1500 watt systems should do a reasonable job of heating the place up. The silver walls will also reflect your lights, so it will seem brighter.
When the weather is better next spring - rebuild the place - 1 foot larger in each direction so you can afford to put 6 inches of insulation in the walls and at least a foot in the ceiling. I would use the DeSoto method of heating...unless you are always going to work in the late evening.
Cheers
Doug
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:38:17 -0800 (PST), KIMOSABE

Temporary measure - pile up (rectangular) straw bales round all the walls and on the roof. Bond foil covered insulation to the outside of the door. Hope no one sets fire to it. Heat with electric fan heater.
Permanent measure, insulate the walls roof and floor with the best insulation you can afford., probably better to rebuild from scratch with *at least* 4 inches of insulation in the floor, walls and roof. Heat with (air) passive solar collectors in a south facing wall.
Insulate correctly and you wont need a wood stove or the other dingbat ideas often floated around for workshop use - they cause many more problems than they solve.
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