Does a Domino make a Mortise & Tenon joint?

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non-pinned joint is as strong or strongetthan a pinned joint? I read lots of these reports and haven't seen one yet.

I only made it through the first year and 1/2 of my engineering education but later in life also worked with FEA analysis software and I think you have things quite wrong. Backwards actually. The rounded surface will produce a much more evenly distributed force than flat surfaces.

Sorry you like to build crap. I build quality pieces that will last many generations if the holders wish them to do so.
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In article <fb7eff25-536a-4e7d-872a-6d4da5302c61

You might want to take a look at <http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj56 (3)51- 57.pdf> in which tests showed that chairs with pinned tenons were weaker than with unpinned. Fine Woodworking's test showed similar results.
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Ya know, I was ready to eat some crow and enjoy the taste if someone finally brought a gun to this knife fight and offered up some real supporting evidence. However, this report compares pinned joints with no glue vs glued joints with no pins. Furthermore, it finds the pinned joints are 80% to 90% as strong as the glued joint method (IIRC). So you have just proven my point in a way because if the pin itself is nearly as strong as a glued joint, is adding a pin to a glued joint going to make it stronger... the crowd shouts YES!
Please reference my original and simple point that an unpinned joint is not 100% as strong as a pinned joint and don't take the argument off on some tangent just to find a supporting point, which seems ro be difficult... slice!
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OK, maybe I'm wrong... sorta.
This study http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman/pdf/fpj54 (12)192-197.pdf cleary states pinned joints are weaker in terms of bending moment. This is not a straight pullout test where the pin would surly add strength but the pin does weaking the joint.
Also pin closer to the shoulder is better because the tenon is what breaks, not the mortised piece. Also good wide shoulders add strength.
In my defense, if the glue ever faild the pin would add strength because the way this test was done glued and non glued joinst were the same strength because it was twist not pull. I like it that way sometimes too.
The guys site is amazing http://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/fnr/faculty/Eckelman /
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On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:45:30 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"

I double-dog-DARE ya to test that on your own. Go ahead, discover physics, mon!

And have the leg break out instead? ;)

A pin could help -only- if the glue did, indeed, fail.

Treasure trove of info. Cool!
-- "Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty. There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling the differences between true and false, right and wrong, virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?" --John Adams
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In article <5c65630f-091f-462a-9dbd-59ee15c3acf0

Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Read the article again, and this time look at what is there instead of what you want to be there.

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*chuckles*
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SonomaProducts wrote:

Crap? You be the jugdge
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/DasBench/CBbench33.html
I CAN make things to last - if it's warranted. And I did pin the through mortise and tenon joints on where the drawer units connects to the pedestal legs of my workbench - TWO pins per each large through tenon. But that's because I wanted the option of being able to pop the through pins so if I ever want to take the drawer unit out I can.
You'll note that the frame around the core of the bench top has BIG dovetails - that are NOT glued - to allow for expansion and contraction of the bench top's coore as well as to permit them to be replaced when they get dinged up over the next 100 years. They're held vertically to the core with unglued splines - AllThread and nylon centered lock nuts secrure the front and rear aprons to the bench top core. I could turn walnut plugs to hide the lock nut heads - but I don't want to decieve anyone into thinking the front and back apron is pegged to the core. I went with AllThread and Lock Nuts because they were the strongest most secure means to securing the front and rear apron to the bench top core.
Would it shock you to know that many of the "pegs" and "through tenons" on many of the highly prized and quite expensive antique Stickely furniture hide screws that hold parts together - or - are strickly decorative plugs masquerading as pegs?
Would it surprise you to discover that some pretty high end chinese and indian furniture - use NO glue - AND - no pegs, relying on interlocking joinery - that can't be seen once the piece is assembled - but permit the piece to be dismantled and reassembled - IF you know where to start the disassembly?
I consider Yeung Chan a high end furniture maker. Check out his delicate looking, elegant chinese plant stand and chair. He brings them totally disassembled to some of his demonstrations - assembles them and then sits on them and wiggles and rocks them. None of the joints open - AT ALL. No pegs - and no glue.
Now back to when to build so it'll last 100 years. Since kitchen and bathroom cabinets are typically replaced every 10 to 20 years why build them to hold up for 100 years? Using modern methods of joining and modern glues, who says today's pieces won't hold up - for a hundred years?
Should jonery that WILL hold up for a hundred years be THE criteria to distinguish "high end" pieces from "crap" pieces? Personally, I find most A&C / Stickley / Greene & Greene furniture to be too massive and not very aesthetically pleasing to the eye, nor comfortable to use. Same goes for Mission and Prairie furniture as well as most Mediteranean furniture. But that's just my taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Strength and the integrity of the joinery - that's an engineering and strength of materials issue. If the parts stay together - at least for my lifetime - I don't care how they're done - if they work - and I don't have to see them.
If loose tenon joiniery will meet my needs - and I cut the mortises with a DOMINO I'm satisfied with my work.
Have a look at these bonsai display tables - made for outdoor use. Not really high end - but hardly crap either. They've been out in the weather, with bonsai on them that are watered several times a day during warm weather. Other than the redwood they're made of weathering to a grayish color, no joints have failed or opened - at all.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/BonsaiStands/BonsaiStands4.html
Should one of them eventually fail, I'll make another - in about an hour or maybe two - since I can do ALL the mortises required - in 15 minutes - at the most - thanks to the DOMINO - and the modern marvel - electricity.
Oh, and BTW - if this one's yours, you might want to hide the nail heads, be more carefull with the glue, at least ease some of the sharp edges and cut the molding miters a bit better - there shouldn't be visible gaps in mitered corners.
http://www.sonomaproducts.com/images/stories/kits/gallery/pf-ps-L-main.jpg
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All good points but it is a shame you don't see the beauty in Craftsman designs but as you said, in the eye of the beholder.
I and others have certainly used screws to act as a pin and may hid the fact with a faux pin. Serves the same mechanical purpose.
Regarding the rustic pine piece you point out; it is just that, rustic. That line of furniture is called Petaluma Farmhouse and emulates pieces built by a farmer for his household a century ago. The reality is that fitting the mitered crown will be difficult for my customers because from the kit those pieces are pre-cut. If they build the box column perfectly and the wood moisture is good then they may get the miters to fit perfect. But it is likely they will have trouble getting all four sides to fit perfect. Therefore when I took the photos I found a side where it wasn't perfect on purpose so I am not overselling what can be accomplished.
The intent as some of the samples show is to slather these things with cheap paint and sand it off for a distressed look or use a crackle finish, etc. I provide some basic instruction son how to do those finishes with the kits.
One of the beauties of my Craftsman line (which isn't commercially available yet) is that due to the rectalinear (sp?) nature of that style it is easy to mill the kits in such a way as to allow kit assembly to produce near perfect results without need of commercial grade equipment to adjust any of the milled pieces.
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I don't buy that a pinned tennon makes a

We'll have to disagree on that one.
Thats OK and I still respect you. l~)
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In any case, I don't care if the joint lasts more than 30 years. I'll be dead by then. The people still living can make their own.
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wrote in message

Not that is NOT politically correct! Do you are? LOL
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They look great, though. It's pretty much the only reason I use them. Yellow glue isn't likely to fail within my lifetime.
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They look great, though. It's pretty much the only reason I use them. Yellow glue isn't likely to fail within my lifetime.
Acsolutely agree that the pins look great!
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SonomaProducts.com wrote:

NO chair joint will withstand a teenage boy - glued, welded, pinned or cut out of a single log - of oak.
If you're going to "pin" the joint - a square pin will hold up longer than a round pin. With modern glues however, a pinned joint is analogous to wearing a belt AND suspenders.
The beauty of the DOMINO and the mortise and tenon joints you can make with it is accuracy - side slop is minimal and top and bottom slop is as well - unless you want to "dial in" some slop.
Whether it's pinned or not has nothing to do with the joint being a Mortise and Tenon. And if the mortise and tenon is pinned together does it matter if there are two pins rather than just one?
As for strength - some woods used for high end furniture are not all that strong - mahogany for example, especially the stuff available today. It works beautifully - but a mahogany tenon won't be as strong as a separate straight grained birch "loose" tenon. And if the joint is an angled mortise and tenon joint, the separate, straight grained "loose" tenon will be stronger than a traditional tenon and won't split due to grain orientation
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:38:41 -0800 (PST), Robatoy wrote:

I would have to specify that it was loose tenon joinery.
I have trouble calling a piece that contains plywood, "solid wood construction" even though that is accepted practise. Plywood is the very best material for many uses and some parts of fine furniture, but I can't bring myself to call it solid wood.
basilisk
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Actually a Domino makes a mortise. What you do with that mortise will determine what you call it.
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There is a mortise and there is a tenon. The fact that there are TWO mortises, with half the tenon in each one, in now way diminishes the strength or function of the joint. The DOMINO cuts mortises and you supply the tenon - store bought or shop made.
The joint IS a mortise and tenon joint and behaves like one, as opposed to a dowel or pair of dowels or a slots and biscuit.
Now if you were to say it was a Hand Cut mortise and tenon joint and you used a power tool to cut the mortise or tenon - Hand Cut would be deceptive.
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Agreed. There is a tendency (and I have it) to look at dovetail joints and automatically think of them as high craftsmanship. I know that most are done by a jig and router and not by a saw and chisel.
I think the same applies to the Domino. You can say it is a mortise and tenon joint, but not equivalent to one that is handcrafted.
MJ
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;~) Probably not equivalent but more than likely better than hand crafted. Becauseeeeee, the domino tennons are all basically the same, straight grained wood without defects. A tennon cut on the end of a board can be good or it could be terrible because of what you have to work with at the end of the board. Not all boards have good ends for tennons.
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