non-pinned joint is as strong or strongetthan a pinned joint? I read
lots of these reports and haven't seen one yet.
I only made it through the first year and 1/2 of my engineering
education but later in life also worked with FEA analysis software and
I think you have things quite wrong. Backwards actually. The rounded
surface will produce a much more evenly distributed force than flat
Sorry you like to build crap. I build quality pieces that will last
many generations if the holders wish them to do so.
You might want to take a look at
57.pdf> in which tests showed that chairs with pinned tenons were weaker than with unpinned. Fine Woodworking's test showed similar results.
Ya know, I was ready to eat some crow and enjoy the taste if someone
finally brought a gun to this knife fight and offered up some real
supporting evidence. However, this report compares pinned joints with
no glue vs glued joints with no pins. Furthermore, it finds the pinned
joints are 80% to 90% as strong as the glued joint method (IIRC). So
you have just proven my point in a way because if the pin itself is
nearly as strong as a glued joint, is adding a pin to a glued joint
going to make it stronger... the crowd shouts YES!
Please reference my original and simple point that an unpinned joint
is not 100% as strong as a pinned joint and don't take the argument
off on some tangent just to find a supporting point, which seems ro be
OK, maybe I'm wrong... sorta.
cleary states pinned joints are weaker in terms of bending moment.
This is not a straight pullout test where the pin would surly add
strength but the pin does weaking the joint.
Also pin closer to the shoulder is better because the tenon is what
breaks, not the mortised piece. Also good wide shoulders add strength.
In my defense, if the glue ever faild the pin would add strength
because the way this test was done glued and non glued joinst were the
same strength because it was twist not pull. I like it that way
The guys site is amazing
On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:45:30 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
I double-dog-DARE ya to test that on your own. Go ahead, discover
And have the leg break out instead? ;)
A pin could help -only- if the glue did, indeed, fail.
Treasure trove of info. Cool!
"Human nature itself is evermore an advocate for liberty.
There is also in human nature a resentment of injury, and
indignation against wrong. A love of truth and a veneration
of virtue. These amiable passions, are the latent spark. If
the people are capable of understanding, seeing and feeling
the differences between true and false, right and wrong,
virtue and vice, to what better principle can the friends of
mankind apply than to the sense of this difference?"
Crap? You be the jugdge
I CAN make things to last - if it's warranted. And I did pin
the through mortise and tenon joints on where the drawer units
connects to the pedestal legs of my workbench - TWO pins per
each large through tenon. But that's because I wanted the option
of being able to pop the through pins so if I ever want to take
the drawer unit out I can.
You'll note that the frame around the core of the bench top has
BIG dovetails - that are NOT glued - to allow for expansion and
contraction of the bench top's coore as well as to permit them
to be replaced when they get dinged up over the next 100 years.
They're held vertically to the core with unglued splines - AllThread
and nylon centered lock nuts secrure the front and rear aprons
to the bench top core. I could turn walnut plugs to hide the
lock nut heads - but I don't want to decieve anyone into thinking
the front and back apron is pegged to the core. I went with
AllThread and Lock Nuts because they were the strongest most
secure means to securing the front and rear apron to the
bench top core.
Would it shock you to know that many of the "pegs" and
"through tenons" on many of the highly prized and quite
expensive antique Stickely furniture hide screws that hold
parts together - or - are strickly decorative plugs masquerading
Would it surprise you to discover that some pretty high end
chinese and indian furniture - use NO glue - AND - no pegs,
relying on interlocking joinery - that can't be seen once the
piece is assembled - but permit the piece to be dismantled
and reassembled - IF you know where to start the
I consider Yeung Chan a high end furniture maker. Check out
his delicate looking, elegant chinese plant stand and chair. He
brings them totally disassembled to some of his demonstrations
- assembles them and then sits on them and wiggles and rocks
them. None of the joints open - AT ALL. No pegs - and no glue.
Now back to when to build so it'll last 100 years. Since kitchen
and bathroom cabinets are typically replaced every 10 to 20 years
why build them to hold up for 100 years? Using modern methods
of joining and modern glues, who says today's pieces won't hold
up - for a hundred years?
Should jonery that WILL hold up for a hundred years be THE
criteria to distinguish "high end" pieces from "crap" pieces?
Personally, I find most A&C / Stickley / Greene & Greene
furniture to be too massive and not very aesthetically pleasing
to the eye, nor comfortable to use. Same goes for Mission
and Prairie furniture as well as most Mediteranean furniture.
But that's just my taste.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Strength and the integrity
of the joinery - that's an engineering and strength of materials
issue. If the parts stay together - at least for my lifetime
- I don't care how they're done - if they work - and I don't have
to see them.
If loose tenon joiniery will meet my needs - and I cut the mortises
with a DOMINO I'm satisfied with my work.
Have a look at these bonsai display tables - made for outdoor
use. Not really high end - but hardly crap either. They've been
out in the weather, with bonsai on them that are watered
several times a day during warm weather. Other than the
redwood they're made of weathering to a grayish color, no
joints have failed or opened - at all.
Should one of them eventually fail, I'll make another - in about
an hour or maybe two - since I can do ALL the mortises required
- in 15 minutes - at the most - thanks to the DOMINO - and the
modern marvel - electricity.
Oh, and BTW - if this one's yours, you might want to hide the nail
heads, be more carefull with the glue, at least ease some of the
sharp edges and cut the molding miters a bit better - there shouldn't
be visible gaps in mitered corners.
All good points but it is a shame you don't see the beauty in
Craftsman designs but as you said, in the eye of the beholder.
I and others have certainly used screws to act as a pin and may hid
the fact with a faux pin. Serves the same mechanical purpose.
Regarding the rustic pine piece you point out; it is just that,
rustic. That line of furniture is called Petaluma Farmhouse and
emulates pieces built by a farmer for his household a century ago. The
reality is that fitting the mitered crown will be difficult for my
customers because from the kit those pieces are pre-cut. If they build
the box column perfectly and the wood moisture is good then they may
get the miters to fit perfect. But it is likely they will have trouble
getting all four sides to fit perfect. Therefore when I took the
photos I found a side where it wasn't perfect on purpose so I am not
overselling what can be accomplished.
The intent as some of the samples show is to slather these things with
cheap paint and sand it off for a distressed look or use a crackle
finish, etc. I provide some basic instruction son how to do those
finishes with the kits.
One of the beauties of my Craftsman line (which isn't commercially
available yet) is that due to the rectalinear (sp?) nature of that
style it is easy to mill the kits in such a way as to allow kit
assembly to produce near perfect results without need of commercial
grade equipment to adjust any of the milled pieces.
NO chair joint will withstand a teenage boy - glued, welded, pinned or
cut out of a single log - of oak.
If you're going to "pin" the joint - a square pin will hold up longer
than a round pin. With modern glues however, a pinned joint is
analogous to wearing a belt AND suspenders.
The beauty of the DOMINO and the mortise and tenon joints you can make
with it is accuracy - side slop is minimal and top and bottom slop is as
well - unless you want to "dial in" some slop.
Whether it's pinned or not has nothing to do with the joint being
a Mortise and Tenon. And if the mortise and tenon is pinned together
does it matter if there are two pins rather than just one?
As for strength - some woods used for high end furniture are not
all that strong - mahogany for example, especially the stuff available
today. It works beautifully - but a mahogany tenon won't be as strong
as a separate straight grained birch "loose" tenon. And if the joint
is an angled mortise and tenon joint, the separate, straight grained
"loose" tenon will be stronger than a traditional tenon and won't split
due to grain orientation
On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:38:41 -0800 (PST), Robatoy wrote:
I would have to specify that it was loose tenon joinery.
I have trouble calling a piece that contains plywood,
"solid wood construction" even though that is accepted
practise. Plywood is the very best material for many
uses and some parts of fine furniture, but I can't bring
myself to call it solid wood.
There is a mortise and there is a tenon. The fact that there are TWO
mortises, with half the tenon in each one, in now way diminishes the
strength or function of the joint. The DOMINO cuts mortises and you
supply the tenon - store bought or shop made.
The joint IS a mortise and tenon joint and behaves like one, as opposed
to a dowel or pair of dowels or a slots and biscuit.
Now if you were to say it was a Hand Cut mortise and tenon joint
and you used a power tool to cut the mortise or tenon - Hand Cut
would be deceptive.
Agreed. There is a tendency (and I have it) to look at dovetail joints
and automatically think of them as high craftsmanship. I know that
most are done by a jig and router and not by a saw and chisel.
I think the same applies to the Domino. You can say it is a mortise
and tenon joint, but not equivalent to one that is handcrafted.
;~) Probably not equivalent but more than likely better than hand crafted.
Becauseeeeee, the domino tennons are all basically the same, straight
grained wood without defects. A tennon cut on the end of a board can be
good or it could be terrible because of what you have to work with at the
end of the board. Not all boards have good ends for tennons.
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