Decline in craftsmanship

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says...

The ones who graduate in rocket science are flipping burgers too you know.
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The Chinese system of climbing the academic ladder is based on ferocious mass and massive competition.
The stress of that competition weeds out the weaklings and those less likely to survive the competition in higher education.
I think they probably lose a lot of genius to the meat grinder of that competition.
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wrote:

Exactly! A BIG +1!
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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com says...

Given the political core of China this begs the questions, 'But who gets preferential treatment and for what reasons?' and, 'What must one be and/or surrender to get this kind of preferential treatment?'
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On 7/25/2012 11:42 AM, phorbin wrote:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date 970826&slug%56773
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I'm gonna throw up...
Some day, humans will realize that they're all part of the same race: human.
-- In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. -- Albert Camus
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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com says...

That is part of my picture of the issues.
There is also the issue of colonization, the moving Han Chinese into minority territories/conquered countries to turn the 'indigenous minorities within China' into minority populations in their homelands.
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wrote:

I think we should emphasize ability more. Guess what, I'd like to make education more affordable. For anyone who can show ability and dedication to persevere. Invest in talent. Do reward good students, good teachers and good researchers. But set limits.

We should discourage instant gratification ...

Bankers are (wrongly, IMO) in it for the profit that loans give NOW. Somehow a focus on more long term yields, away from short term results, is needed. People should qualify for the loans they take out. Of course that gives the problem of the artrist-type with a good idea, but no track record (just an example). I don't know how to solve that. Obviously I would not want to get blamed for somone's inabaility to get financing because he is from a ghetto background with no track record ...
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On 7/22/2012 5:59 AM, Han wrote:

Cream rises to the top. Our nation has amply proved that higher education for the mediocre simply fosters further mediocrity.
Besides, you have to be careful how you spend other peoples money ... if it hadn't been for the .001% wealthy and powerful at the time, you would have never hear d of either Da Vinci or Michelangelo.
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Absolutely, but what do you do with the Ancient South American Languanges department?

OK, mostly. What limits?
Making college more affordable can easily start with getting rid of the bloat. Evernotice the construction going on at the major universities?

OK. I'm all ears.

Huh! Who wudda thought that bankers were in business to make money.

They're still making 30 year mortgages. Isn't that long enough? OTOH, Fannie and Freddie are there to take them off their hands - instantly (mine didn't even make the first mortgage payment).

That's not a good thing? I though you _wanted_ people to have to qualify for loans? An "artrist-type" can't work their way up?

Why? Minorities are incapable of working their way up? ...or you just don't want the *blame*?
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wrote:

Wow, you did get my drift! liberal, but fiscally responsible. And art for the sake of art is just fine, whether or not dead or almost dead languages are involved. Universities aren't trade schools. I retired in large part because of the ridiculous bloated bureaucracy that required me to spend almost all my time with requirements, certifications and nonsense reports, rather than the research I was being paid to do. But doing away with those things needs to mean that people who commit fraud get really serious punishment, rather than just being banned for 5 years of receiving federal funds.
Indeed I don't want to be blamed for denying minorities their rights. How to exactly balance the individual's right to help out of a previously disadvantaged situation and the right of society for productively using their resources, is difficult <grin>.
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wrote:

I have absolutely no problem with some subsidies for art for art's sake. The "some" is rather stretchable, of course. Governments of all levels have sponsored artists and engineers to build buildings, parks, bridges, what have you. At times they were nice, functional, pretty, whatever good adjectives you want. Sometimes they built ridiculous things, sometimes they built ugly and dysfunctional.

When you invest in startups/entrepreneurs/venture capital firms, you expect some duds, as well as some really good outcomes. In art I'd expect the same. (Even to the extent that some "investments" are rigged by the "judges".)

Greater benefit than costs? One would hope that all investments pay off handsomely, but I'd think that reinvestment would be the best thing that could happen.

Maybe I rose up in the ranks too far, but I have heard the complaint also from administrative staff, and I have seen the office of the division head expand like balloons, especially during the last 5-10 years.

I agree with the idea, just not the specifics here. As in politics, it is really easy to focus laser-like on out of context statements.

Grin. Rights here can be stretched too. How stringently do you apply standards of performance, if perhaps the subject student has had repeatedly bad luck in his family and/or health? I know shit happens, and sometimes you can wipe it off and go on, and at other times you can't get rid of the bad luck.

Surely true in some cases. In others, there is a lack of guidance, help, supervision, whatever.
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I do, primarily because it's such a personal subject. Let the market decide what's "art", not politicians with my money.

There is a difference between art and capital improvements.

Which is why it shouldn't happen.

Government shouldn't be "investing" in *ANY* of that. It can't make rational decisions. I don't care what *you* invest in. It's your money.

Government making investments that pay off? You mean like Solyndra?

Sure but professors are supposed to teach, no?

Out of context, my ass. It was clearly conspiracy to fraud. ...at *least*.

"Repeated bad luck"? LOL! There is no such thing. "Bad luck" is having your dog eat your homework. Repeated?

*ALL* cases. It's inherent in any discrimination.
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On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 00:52:03 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Same ol, same ol. If it doesn't work, hit it with a hammer and then throw it away after that.
You my friend, are about as shortsighted as it gets. Hell, why should I be surprised? Guess I should expect it from you at this point.
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On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 17:44:54 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

And then, once in awhile, an extremely rare once instance, you say something that makes absolute sense.

Of course, inevitably, you revert back to your hammer approach. You're right in what you say, but the problem with it is that just giving up on people who have failed creates another disadvantaged group. The type of group I might add, that affirmative actions tried to eliminate in the first place.
Your solution while it might fix a problem in one area, creates another difficult to solve problem in another area.
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You really are a condescending ass. ...and obvious academic.
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Gramp's shop wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/22/business/what-happened-to-the-craftsmanship-spirit-essay.html?_r=1&hp
It's an interesting article, but it just causes me to worry a bit more about our country in general. I've always found it strange that our "popular culture" gets away with being so much at odds with our nation's real needs. I guess we have a very successul entertainment industry.
How will our nation cope with an apparently declining middle class? Thinking it through, there is plenty to be concerned about.
As I've said here before, to me it seems that the major political parties stand by their interests selfishly. This just seems to add more fuel to the problem above. For instance, wealthy people may not wish to help pay for better public schools.
I've written this message at least 3 times so far, so I'm going to have to finish for now and move on, and maybe come back if I'm somehow persuaded. In the meantime, Go USA! : )
Bill
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The 60s hippies have been in control for some time. What do you expect?

The middle class can't exist in the US without the entrepreneur class. You know, those people who "didn't do it themselves".

They certainly don't want to pay for worse ones. ...and that's what we're getting. Most I know on the right are quite at ease with the idea of "charter schools" and they aren't free.

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snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

I expect a government "for the people". When I was a little kid I expected people to exhibit restraint/discipline and to work hard for their own best interests and to share with others in need. I expected everyone would want to look out for the environment. I was naive in some ways.

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I'd say that nothing's changed.
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