Common Courtesy

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Tim Douglass wrote:

Wait a minute there. Since when does Comon Sense trump Common Courtesy? %-) Sounds like a great idea. This last year everyboy's been kinda testy, what w' the trolls and all. Let's take a breath and get back to havin' fun. Poo suit on, rubberbands engaged. Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
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Tom Watson wrote:

a review of YOUR post suggests you are RUDE!
DAVE
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Amen, Mr. Watson. I have posted a few questions on this forum occasionally, and have always gotten good advice from several regulars. Before posting, I have done my homework by searching the web, by study of my meager library, and even by trying on scraps of wood. Many times, I found answers to fit my needs via a Google search.
My sense of the problem is that a lot of folks post a question here as a first and only resort, rather than as a last or next-to-last resort. Many times, I found answers to posted queries through a brief Google or other search - a method the posers might try for themselves first, rather than expecting the regulars here to spoon-feed them.
I also do a lot of lurking in a couple of the Microsoft forums and am amazed at the number of queries repeatedly posted which in many, many cases could be answered with the simple expedient of pressing F1 for online help on the posers' computers.
Amazing!

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Wed, Jun 30, 2004, 8:13pm snipped-for-privacy@abccomcast.net (Lu Powell) says: <snip> Before posting, I have done my homework <snip>
I, for one, am much more apt to answer, or try to, someone's questions, or give a reasonable answer, if I think they've done their homework.
My sense of the problem is that a lot of folks post a question here as a first and only resort, rather than as a last or next-to-last resort. <snip>
Yep, and some of them do that because their time is "too valuable" to spend looking for something. I lump them in the same group that brag about just spending $1,000 + for a new whatever, and then want a free plan. Makes you wonder at times.
Personally, I'd almost rather slash my wrists than ask a question here. I do ask once in awhile tho, normally when I've been looking for someone without success, for days, or in at least one case, for about 3 months. But, as a rule I know I can usually find what I'm looking for in side of 10 minutes. Seems like a lot more efficient use ot time, then posting here, and not getting an answer for probably a day.
Many times, I found answers to posted queries through a brief Google or other search <snip>
Most of the questions here could be answered the same way. Especially if they checked the archives. But, they don't.
Amazing!
I used to work for a Navy LCDR. He would attend the little meetings they were always having - this was in the Pentagon. He would come back and telll me that they would ask his opinion, and he would always say, "That's amazing". Then he'd say, you can always tell if someone's a gentleman. Because a gentleman always says "amazing", instead of "bullshit". ROTFLMAO
JOAT "That's right," he said. "We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am." - From Small Gods
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NOT PERSONALY DIRECTED DIATRIBE FOLLOWS
Why shouldn't the wreck be the first resort?
I never have got this DAGS insistence.....
I use the wreck like I used Fidonet years ago, a collection of mates, old farts, wise ones and fools, all chinwagging. Why shouldnt I lean across the bar (keyboard) and ask a mate the question instead of going to the library or news archive?
You see, a collection of people in a room, would not say to each other
"Hey man, don't ask me that question again - go and read where it was written up in my memoirs!"
To me, I reckon if you have that attitude, you should shut up, rather than say,
"I refuse to respond helpfully, because I have spoken before upon this subject"
Gee - rant rant rant...
All better now... Just my opinion - which is worth EXACTLY the same as yours....whoever you may be behind that pink Tutu.
Oh, and don't start on top posting. I was emailing and newsgrouping before the Internet became fashionable.
Mike Brisbane Fidonet Mail hub 3:640/301 :-)
Oh, and PS - Big thanks for the incredible learning tool that the Wreck crew provides. Yes - even the "Miscreants", and the BAD's and the JT's etc etc etc....

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Mike Richardson rants:

You don't know the same people I do, then. "Go look it up" has always been a fine and satisfactory way to provide impetus to gathering information. As a certified old fart, I refuse to provide definitions of more complex words to my now teen-aged (jeez, they're aging!) grandchildren. They remember the information longer if they put at least a teeny bit of effort into gaining it.
Too, give some thought to perennial subjects like rusty cast iron. How many times do you think someone wants to cover the different ways of removing rust and protecting table saw andjointer surfaces?

Yeah, well...responding is one thing. Responding 50 times to the same question is another.
Especially when fewer keyboard strokes will bring up all 49 previous answers, plus 1500 from other people, on the subject.
Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken
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Each time the rust question is posed, it seems, there are many answers given. In a book or article (by a lesser author, of course) perhaps one or two, with number two suffering by comparison. They may seem the same, but some are nuanced, or expanded occasionally to add a bit of fresh insight.
Then there's the chance that serendipity or a new product may change the game forever, like with the tablesaw hot-dog slicer that doesn't work.
So, if you don't care to answer for the fifty-first time - don't. Can get frustrating, I'll admit, to realize that someone is working with powered tools and hasn't the agility to crack a book, but every one of us asked or looked up those same questions once.
When my eldest was about two, I was changing a washer in my shower. It was one of those slimy rubber jobs, and as was checking the seat, he reached for it. I was about to give the "old-timer" smack often administered here, when I thought of my dad. If he hadn't allowed me to interfere, I'd never have learned a thing. I brought my boy into the tub and let him "help," and he ended up an engineer, who also loves woodworking.
Mike Richardson rants:

many
rust
than
question
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Charlie Self wrote:

gee, did it EVER occur to you to JUST NOT REPLY to someone who asked a question that you deem unworthy of your attention???
dave
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On 01 Jul 2004 09:46:35 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) calmly ranted: -snip-

So Grandpa Charlie gets his exercise nowadays by hurling the Websters Hernia Edition at the kids, does he?

Amen, bruddah. I often find it quicker to type in the basic search URL http://www.google.com/search?q= and add their description "whiny bahstids" at the end, then post it as a reply:
Try this http://www.google.com/search?q=whiny+bahstids
------------------------------------------------------------ California's 4 Seasons: Fire, Flood, Drought, & Earthquake -------------------------------------- http://www.diversify.com NoteSHADES(tm) glare guards
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Mike,
I flew back from 3 days in Brisbane this afternoon, so first, let me say - you guys are nuts. I sat eating my breakfast in the mall opposite the Casino under a gas heater, and I was sweating. I had my jacket off and was surrounded by shivering, gloved-up and beanied Brisbanites. Quite a surreal experience. (wusses)
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. My personal view on the DAGS is that I do not mind helping a person who asks a question. Sometimes I will do extended research to find the answer for someone, then post it for all. However, if a person appears not to know about Google searches, I will tell them. I stop helping anyone who doesn't help others or who consistently fails to show any inclination to help themselves (thankfully these are few and far between).
Thee are a number who ask "dumb" questions repeatedly, but try to help out where they can - and I don't think people mind helping them at all. There have been some others that *demand* help, abuse those who suggest Google and complain when given a Google search link - they tend to be responded to in kind. Then there are variations in between that draw a variety of responses; as you would know, that is the nature of Usenet.
Is it more rude for the group to ask someone to use Google (even occasionally), than it is for a new member to expect to be part of a group that uses Google as a resource, but not attempt to use Google in the same manner as the other members?
It takes me, on average, three to 8 seconds to initiate a Google search and get a response (usually thousands). It can take up to a minute to formulate a post and send it. I am then forced to wait a few minutes to a day to get an answer, if at all. So the use of Google is more efficient initially. If I don't find what I want, I then post a question (ok, not always - but mostly), and usually will mention that Google has been consulted.
*Not* using Google is a waste of someone's time, continued failure to use Google (even occasionally) can annoy people. In your analogy of the mates at the bar - I fully agree with you. But these are not mates, they are strangers (to the newbie). Go into any bar in Brisbane tonight and sit down with a bunch of strangers and start asking for directions. If someone offers you a map, refuse it and state that you prefer personal responses. Follow this up by asking for more directions. Some people may humour you (may), but the tone of the conversation will change. Then leave, and have a friend go in and repeat the process. For a realistic experience, choose a builder's labourers bar...
I guess in a way it is like some people's attitude to those on the dole. There are those who believe they should work to earn it, others will think it is ok to do nothing and live off the government. The general view usually lies somewhere in between. ie, at some point self help is necessary.
cheers
--
Greg


"Mike Richardson" < snipped-for-privacy@spam.me.not.bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
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This thread reminds me of the lad that emigrated from Puerto Rico to the U.S. and started at a naval base as an engineer. He came to me and asked a question about obtaining a piece of data adding "Don't do it for me just tell me where to go to get it and who to ask" and I almost kissed him, what a refreshing change! I resisted the temptation.
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I hope you shoved him through the xerox a few times, they're a rare breed nowadays.
Greg
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Mike Richardson wrote:

If it was any real effort to do a google search then that would be one thing. But it's not. One of the great benefits of USENET is that it is archived--unlike a conversation in a pub, with USENET you can get the benefit not only of the wisdom of everyone in the pub, but of everyone who has ever been in that pub. By neglecting the search you miss out on that benefit.
Also, I for one find it really annoying when someone asks a question and the first hit on the topic on Google is a huge web site devoted to answering that specific question.
Also, if you do the search you may find that there is an 800 post thread on the topic that just ran down a couple of days before, indicating that everyone involved is pretty much burnt out on it. Then there's the question that gets asked over and over and over again so that there are usually several posts active on the group at the same time from different people asking the same question, to which, if they'd bothered to read the group for a bit (listen to the ongoing discussion in your hypothetical pub) they'd already know the answer.
Further, by asking first instead of searching first, you short-change yourself. The world's expert on the topic about which you're inquiring might be a regular on the group, but be offline for whatever reason at the time that you ask--by doing the search you would find his extensive discussion of your question but by asking instead of searching you'd miss that. Or he may just be into something else now and not interested in discussing that particular topic anymore.
Or you may hit a religious issue that nobody wants to get into because every time it's come up it's degenerated into a huge flame war.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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the
You captured my sentiments as well.
Sometimes we come here with a specific question - like leaning across the bar and asking "Joe, just how did you hang that ceiling fan from a 17' high room?". Sometimes we come here with a gripe, "Did I tell you what that delivery schmoe did to me the other day?". Sometimes we come here for support, "I've got my heart set on a Pontiac Aztec. I think I'll get one, whadd'a you think?"
Sometimes I come here to read posts from individuals who's wit and skill I've grown to admire.
One not need opine on everything -- this is a rare occasion where I disagree with Mr. Self: If I tire of answering questions on rust(*) then its less energy to not respond then to compose a DAGS rejoinder.
(*) WD-40 and Scotch Brite = Less Filling/Tastes Great
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Patrick Conroy writes:

Well, yes. Check the last time I answered a question on rust, if I ever did. Basically, I figure if the person is too lazy to help himself, then I'm entitled to be too lazy to help him, too.
That includes not telling him to DAGS.
Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken
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Thu, Jul 1, 2004, 3:37pm (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) says: <snip> I figure if the person is too lazy to help himself, then I'm entitled to be too lazy to help him, too. <snip>
It's all word play, but I always figure being lazy is good. I consider a lazy person, one who tries to do things right the first time, so they don't have to redo them. What you term "lazy" I would call "bone idle", someone wanting someone else to do their work for them. But, I get the meaning, and totally agree.
JOAT "That's right," he said. "We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am." - From Small Gods
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Sometimes, there are days or evenings we cannot get into the shop ourselves. Business travel. Family responsibilities. Sometimes our knees or backs hurt, or other body parts don't function as well as tools would require. Sometimes, the meds say "don't use heavy machinery". To have the Wreck here lets us, for the most part, enjoy our hobby, in spite of today's limitations. It is indeed a worldwide web...
I wish I had known of, and used the resources, including the archives, more fully, prior to purchasing some of the more expensive artifacts of wood modification in my shop. There would be more room for working and storage. And less explaining to my wife about why I needed a new blurfl.
In the archives, I have met Wreckers now passed on, and appreciated their skills, both personal and craft. Lessons written up by resident, and less resident, gurus are in my save files, and are part of my shop routine. I doubt I ever would have tried shellac, or acquired and tuned an old handplane, without the simple, clear explanations offered here, to a beginner. Thanks again, Paddy. And Paul. And Patrick. And charlie. And all of the others.
I am saddened deeply when, for whatever reason, a p*ss*ng contest breaks out. Human nature being what it is, hoever, I am not surprised. Just saddened. Because, what was enjoyable, now must be filtered, either electronically, or otherwise.
And this has been too nice a place, too much a refuge, to simply abandon.
Patriarch
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Thu, Jul 1, 2004, 5:32pm (EDT+4) patriarch
<snip> I wish I had known of, and used the resources, including the archives, <snip>
And, for those who don't use it, here is the link to the archives. Use it. http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?as_ugroup=rec.woodworking&lr=&num=30
Actually, it's just an advanced google search.
JOAT "That's right," he said. "We're philosophers. We think, therefore we am." - From Small Gods
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Mike Richardson wrote:

Ditto what Mike says.
UA100
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Tom Watson wrote:

yes, you ARE whining...which is precisely what folks do on Usenet sometimes. :) The question now is, do ya feel better for having whined over some perceived slight(s)??
dave
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