Ammonia help needed


Hey chemists in the group,
I've been trying to track down some 26% ammonia for some fuming. I've tried to find it through blueprinting supply houses with no luck at all. Apparently the digital revolution is sending blueprinting the way of the dodo. I've also surfed the 'net for chemical supply house. I have found many different "flavors" but I can't figure out which flavor is appropriate and some look very scary. Can anyone post a link that would take me directly to a product page that has ammonia that is appropriate for fuming? I would be very grateful for any help on this.
Paul
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Sorry this isn't an actual response but I think this will help.
Ask you're local high school chemestry teacher. Let them know what you are doing and what you are looking for and they should be able to tell you the "Industry name" and maybe even point you to a supply house.
Hope that helps, Tom P.
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On 17 Aug 2006 09:51:15 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

<<<<<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've had good luck fuming cherry and oak with the janitor grade stuff you can get at most hardware stores. It's about 8%, so it probably takes a longer and a bit more in the containers in your fuming tank than 26%, but it works. It's also a BUNCH safer. High concentration ammonia is nasty stuff to handle, so if you get it, war a good mask and heavy rubber gloves. Do not get it on your skin, in your eyes, or close to anything you value, as it gives off amazing amounts of ammonia gas which is quite toxic and and will react with a lot of common household items (cloth, metal items, etc.).
Used to be a CHE and it seems to me that the reaction is actually occurring at the molecular level. One molecule of NH3 (ammonia gas) does its thing on one molecule of tannic acid or cellulose. A higher concentration of NH4OH (ammonium hydroxide, what we call liquid ammonia) will provide more NH3 molecules to react, but it's still a one-to-one thing, so lower concentrations will just make it take longer to hit the same number of target molecules in your wood.
Try a scrap, time it and check it until it looks right. For my work with cherry 24 hours - 36 hours got the result I wanted. Oak took 36 - 72 hours.
Regards.
Tom
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Yep. Even household ammonia from the grocery store works. It just takes longer.
Bear in mind that ammonia fuming was discovered by observing what happens to white oak in livestock stalls... I'm pretty sure that horse and cow piss isn't anywhere near 26% ammonia.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

to
isn't
If you've ever cleaned horse stalls, particularly one that hasn't been cleaned in a while, you'll be ready to swear it is.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/13/06
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

This'll hook you up, Paul.
http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/PAS-ammoniumhydroxide.html#2013
What you want is the Ammonium Hydroxide, Lab, Glass Bottle, 1L - Single Unit $12.65.
Like the others said, however, this is dangerous stuff. And a normal OV respirator, like you wear when working with lacquer, etc. won't do a thing to protect you from these fumes. If you're going to use this stuff, you *must* have your fuming chamber outside.
I've used it myself, however, and love it.
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wood snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

scratch and cut on your exposed skin when working with this stuff.
As another precaution, clear the area of all children and pets - if you have a spill, you don't want to have to worry about anyone but yourself getting to fresh air.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I did some experiments last year (but never put them on my page). I used both blueprint ammonia and grocery store ammonia (lemon scented!)
The results over 24 hours were just about the same. The household stuff didn't darken anymore past 24 hours whereas the blueprint stuff turned the wood black.
Go with the household stuff, it will work just fine unless you're looking to turn your pieces black.
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Thanks for all the timely replies to my question.
Wood_news, I really appreciate the link, that is exactly what I was looking for.
For all who expressed concern, I will definitely be fuming outside with the appropriate mask, goggles, gloves, etc. I will do a follow up post with the results of my efforts.
Paul
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Actually, I did start it - I just never finished it. Here's the page:
http://musial.ws/ammonia_experiment.htm
The stronger ammonia darkened the wood quicker (first batch was 7 hours) but they caught up to each other after 12 hours and stayed even until 24. After 24, the household never got darker but the blueprint kept darkening until it turned black.
Here's the other page for a general overview on fuming. http://musial.ws/fuming.htm
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Paul-
Even if you are fuming outside, you still need to be cognizant of your neighbors. Personally I'd have a water hose nearby, and on / pressurized, for immediate use for a spill. The water will contain the fumes/liquid and prevent further damage.
My background is ChemEng/Chem- not one of the nastiest chemicals to work with but definately up there.
Now adays, given the terror mood, you may find it more difficult to obtain. It's a common precursor for some explosives.
Jason
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Try hospital supply houses, laboratory supply houses, or, if you are in a rural setting, try to purchase some anhydrous ammonia from a farmer or farm supply

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Michael P. Hunter wrote:

How would you use anhydrous ammonia? It's only a liquid at very high pressure (roughly 200 PSI at 100* F). The instant it reaches normal atmospheric pressure it boils.
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Easy. Put the furniture you are fuming in a sealed bag. Create an inlet and an outlet. Pipe in the NH3(g) for a few seconds to purge out most of the air and then close the inlet and outlet. The atmosphere inside the bag will be mostly NH3(g).

It's also a liquid at -34 oC.
Why do you have to have a liquid? You can also use NH3(g).
--
Stoutman
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Stoutman wrote:

Or just use the stuff from the grocery store and don't worry about the DEA or EPA visitng you.
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Duke of Burl wrote:

And these days, the ATF and FBI too!
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