But the product is not identical by definition. Different label, different colour, possibly different bits in the box and so on.
If it were the identical product, then possibly. However, I don't see Wickes power tools available in B&Q.
So please explain why one can find products differing by only the badge and the colour in different stores.
It happens all over the place because the products are not absolutely identical.
I understood you were discussing the difficult to define quality that is 'quality'. Are you suggesting that, to you, tool quality is label, colour, or the number of bits in the box?
Stephen Fry didn't mention gunpowder - I wondered why.
He is clearly suggesting that. If it is not at a tool show it can't exist.
Apologies if this is mentioned elsewhere in this huge thread ;-) but if you find a B&Q that's about to shut down in January, they all seem to be dumping their power tools.
My local one has 50% off many makes.
It's perfectly possible to have two articles that 'look' identical but are built (and tested) to different standards. For example one could have high quality ball bearings throughout, the other plain. Gears on one could be heat treated steel, the other plastic. Etc. Indeed, sharing casings can be economical as the equipment to mould these might be the major setting up tooling cost of the product.
Certainly not.
My definition of tool suitability (of which quality is only one aspect) is
- Precision relating to work being done
- Control (e.g. of motor if appropriate)
- Balance and weight
- Ergonomics (e.g. vibration or lack thereof, ease of use of controls)
- Operation of mechanisms (e.g. gearboxes and clutches in drills)
- Construction
- Range issues - e.g. commonality of batteries for cordless products
- Continuity of product in terms of spares and service
- Availability from multiple sources
- Total cost of ownership (not initial purchase price)
However, others may have a different outlook.
From the perspective of volume retailers such as B&Q and Wickes, the main issue is having a product range at price points that will be appropriate for a part of the market not addressed by the branded vendors, and where they can make a reasonable margin with no support commitment or investment.
Set against my set of suitability and quality criteria, the generic products sold with own label through the DIY stores really do score poorly. None of the items on my list mention the issue of label or colour.
I'm certainly less than impressed with DIY store product offerings where a gimmick or throw in the box item is marketing hyped; e.g.:
- 32v cheap batteries in cordless tools because some spotty 23yr old product manager believes that it is some way relates to penile length.
- Laser guides on cheap saws
- Packets of terrible router or screwdriver bits put in the box as a "free" thing to increase the perceived value.
Having said that, the major brand manufacturers are not above putting their names on pieces of tat either - e.g. Bosch and Makita doing large packs of really ropey drill bits. The marketing manager who thought of that should be fired as well.
You have some very strange ideas. I'd suggest re-reading what I said on the subject, not what you thought I might have said.
As it should be. But your complaint was:
"But the product is not identical by definition. Different label, different colour, possibly different bits in the box and so on."
Surely that complaint was totally irrelevant?
I only mentioned it because you seemed to be more concerned with debating points rather than the very valid comment that you produced in answer to my query.
B&Q is full of Makita and DeWalts, as well as many other brands, inc their own. Wickes sell primarily to the trade, as it is a trade place that welcomes DIYers, and with 200 outlets can't shift that many £130 Kress angle attachement drills a week.
I have a laser guide on a saw and used it to see how it performed, and found it very useful indeed. Gimmick? maybe. But so was electric windows on cars (does anyone have electric windows on their house?), now they are standard.
Does anyone think that the throw-ins are worth it? That is to make it appealing to buy for Dad on his birthday by the Ma or daughter. Pros or serious DIYers are not impressed by that sort of thing. They have their place. My sister bought a ful tool pack, inc drill, for her daughter when she went away to uni. She said it was the best thing her mother could have bought her (at first she thought her mother was mad). All cheapish stuff, but used once in a while to put curtain rails up and the likes. Perfect for the jobs in hand.
I wasn't complaining at all. I was simply making the point that a private label product can be superficially different and that from the perspective of what a retailer may want, good enough.
It was really to address what a volume retailer and a supplier may have as criteria for doing business as opposed to what my criteria are for purchasing tools. The two are quite different.
Matt, you were.
It wasn't.
If you don't want to spend over £50 on a drill driver, it may be worth considering the 14.4 volt Erbauer from Screwfix, it comes with 2 x 1.5 amp batteries and a 1 hour charger for £39.99.
I honestly wouldnt advise buying any Power Performance power tool! Unless you only wanna use it the once! Most of the PP products get returned!
OP here.
I bought the Wickes 15.6V model with removable chuck and angled chuck attachment, although at £95 it was more than I intended to spend. I have several times needed an angled screwdriver but considered them too expensive for occasional use.
I had already looked in Wickes but had not noticed that this one model out of ten or so had this feature. They are not exactly advertising it.
Thanks to Doctor Drivel for the tip.
-- Chris Melluish
This drill is a class act. It gets in tighter than a dedicated angle drill. The angle can be locked in any position, is that the case with yours? Driver bits can be inserted in the angle attachment direct, without the chuck fitted and also into the drill body too. This saves on those expensive quick change chuck attachments you see for around £50. Those square shanked drills and driver bits don't need a chuck.
I was talking to the manager about the drill and he knew little about it; well it is new to Wickes. I had to explain to him the features. He thanked me. He knew it was a Kress, that was about all. He agreed that they were underselling the drill. How many have walked past and ignored it thinking it was just another drill/driver? He said most of the trade tend to buy the black DIY range rather than the professional range. I didn't ask what they do about the guarantee when a drill has clearly been on site for 8 hours a day that was not designed to do so. He said returns were low though.
It normally costs £130.
16 positions - i.e. every 22.5 degrees.
-- Chris Melluish
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