Today's 'problem'. One for the group plumbers, maybe ...?

[Arfa Daily]

So. We're getting there, slowly but surely with the new burger takeout. Missus and daughter have determined where all the gear has to go, and of course, women being women, there's no leeway to take into account how practical any particular option is ... :-)

In the prep area, there needs to be a sink for washing up blender jugs. If you can imagine, this is against the left wall of the area. The only waste pipe in the premises is in the bog, which is in the back room, in the far right corner. This waste goes under the back wall to outside, where it turns right, to meet a drain further to the right in the service road. In the centre of the back wall is the exit door to the service road. The door between the prep area and the back room, is towards the left side of the dividing wall. So, the waste from this new sink can go through the wall into the back room, but can't then turn right to head across towards the bog, because the door between the prep area and the back room is on that wall. So, carry on along the first wall until we reach the back wall. Turn right to head across the back wall towards the bog and ... Doh! the rear exit door is on that wall.

I respectfully suggested to my daughter that the easy solution would be to site the sink in the back room, to the right of the doorway. The waste could then run uninterupted along that wall, turn left at the end, and straight into the bog. That suggestion was met with a screaming hissy fit and words to the effect of (expletives removed !) that if she'd wanted the sink there, she would have designed it in to be just there ...

So, anyone got any suggestions? The floor is solid concrete, so we're not going there. About the only thing I have been able to come up with so far, is to waste the sink into some kind of 'holding' tank nearby, and then use a submersible pump to shift the water up over one of the doorways, and get it to the bog that way. I had a quick look in the Toolstation catalogue, and they have several very reasonably priced examples with float switches to prevent dry running and self-priming options. They all seem capable of lifting a head of 6m or more, so I think they should be able to do the job. I can rig a couple of float switches in the tank to determine start and finish levels so it's all automatic in operation. My biggest problem thought is that if I tee into the existing waste , the fact that water is 'falling' from a pumped height of 2m or so where the pipe would have to go over the door, would result in water flying back up the trap under the bog sink, and into the sink. Am I right with that suspicion ? See any other major problems ? Any factor I've overlooked ? Any easier way ?

TIA

Arfa

[dom]

What sort of budget are you on for your solution?

Is your family careful about what sort of waste goes down sinks?

Are you willing to deal with blockages?

The Heath Robinson proposal sounds dire in every way.

I personally wouldn't have anything other than conventional, carefully designed for correct falls and minimum bends, drainage on a sink.

If you have the budget though, there are pumped solutions designed for commercial kitchens.

[Malcolm]

Dare I suggest a Saniflo or similar solution. I know that theycause problems when used with toilets but all of the waste going down the sink will be already a fairly well ground slurry. IIRC one of their tv ads had a unit installed in a basement kitchen so units to deal with sink wastes should be available.

Malcolm (stands aside and waits for Saniflo jokes/flames)

[Robin]

I don't know if you have overlooked it but who is checking that the design and installation will all pass muster with the environmental health? (My ignorance on such matters is almost immaculate but ISTR they expect either a double sink or sink + dishwasher; plus a separate washbasin for washing hands separate from the one in the bog.)

[Nightjar]

Tell her, if it the position is so critical to the design, she can plumb it in herself.

I seriously doubt that Environmental Health will accept your suggested solution. I am not sure they would be happy with the Saniflo option suggested either. They like simple runs with good cleaning access points.

Colin Bignell

[Andrew Mawson]

takeout.

we're not

catalogue, and

switches to

Cost the hard location. Deduct the cost of the easy location. Convert resulting extra cost into 'burger profit units' then show how many extra burgers SHE will have gto sell to achieve break even on her airey fairy ideas. If it's a commercial venture she needs to know what her dreams are costing.

AWEM

[Arfa Daily]

That is all correct. There is already a sink in the bog, put in by the builders when they did the conversion. We also have provision for a separate staff handwash basin, that is going in a position that is not subject to the waste routing constraints of this big sink. In our last cafe that we sold recently, we had a problem with getting waste away from the staff handwash sink, so the solution adopted there was to let it discharge into a large Jerry can, which was emptied every couple of days. Not the best of solutions, but it did the job. But better than that, over the seven years that we were in there, we had several Environmental Health visits from different inspectors, and although the basin waste arrangement was inspected each time, it was never cited as a problem.

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

But I'm afraid of her ... :-( You haven't met my daughter, have you ? If I tried to tell her that, she'd take my head off my shoulders, and the missus would probably back her up !! Seriously though, she's got this 'no-nonsense' attitude to this sort of thing. She knows that there is a solution to everything, given the time and money to throw at the problem, so that's always her answer. "That's the way I want it, so now figure how to make it happen". To be fair, it does result in getting things 'right' without compromise, and I sort of admire her for being this way.

See my answer to the other poster regarding past experience with Environmental Health inspectors. I don't really see why the Saniflo option would be a problem. It's a sealed system, and would not compromise the pipe runs or their ready access. We are going to have to go down a route something like this, so if they don't like it, they can perhaps suggest an alternative scheme. I have always found them pretty helpful in the past. I expect there are some 'jobsworths' in the business, but I haven't had one visit us around here, so far.

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

Oh trust me ! She knows to the last ha'penny what everything's costing. Her answer to that would be "Not a problem. We'll just sell the extra xxx burgers. That's where it needs to be, and that's where it's going ..." And she doesn't really deal in dreams, just facts. She's a pretty hard-nosed business-person - a trait that she's inherited from the missus. :-)

Arfa

[Arfa Daily]

In the meantime, the daughter has spoken to the boyfriend of a friend of hers. He is a plumber, and interestingly, he immediately suggested a Saniflo unit. Said he's recently fitted one for a sink waste in a similar situation where the waste had to run up and over a doorframe, so maybe this is the answer.

Arfa

[The Medway Handyman]

Man up Arfa! Stop being a wimp!

[Owain]

It was man up all those years ago that got him into this mess in the first place.

I think there are regs for commercial kitchens about grease traps etc on the drains.

Owain

[Andy Champ]

Can't you get her to swap boyfriends for a bit ?

I'd be careful about this. Think about grease...

Andy

[Hugo Nebula]

Building Control may not like it either; the 'new' (2010) Approved Document G suggests that a sink in food prep areas, "should discharge through a grating, a trap and a branch discharge pipe to an adequate system of drainage". Unlike other sections of that AD it doesn't list macerator pumps as an alternative. It also suggests that separate hand washing facilities (over & above that for the WC) may be needed in the kitchen.

[Arfa Daily]

LOL ! Indeed ... :-)

Yes, I'm sure that there are a whole raft of theoretical regs, but I bet that there's not too many places that stick by them to the letter. As to the comments from several people about what sinks are required, I say again, we have a sink in the bog, another *specifically*for staff hand wash, and the one that's causing all the problems with its waste routing. Its sole purpose is for washing up blender jugs, and a few cooking utensils at the end of the night. In terms of grease output, probably less than most people's home kitchens. At the end of the day, it's a takeaway, so won't actually generate much washing up ...

Arfa

[Nightjar]

I may not have met your daughter, but I have met the type - inflexible, certain of their own infallibility and willing to browbeat or intmidate people into doing things their way. When things go right it is due to their superior abilities. When things go wrong, it is because someone else has failed to live up to their expectations or even are deliberately sabotaging their plans.

I am very surprised they accepted the arrangment you had. Mind you, experience with various inspectors over the years suggests each has their own particular areas of concern and, bacause they usually have limited time to carry out an inspection, they may miss things outside of that. Of course, they may expect a higher standard from a new build.

As Hugo points out, it is not an approved method of compliance with Part G for food preparation areas.

Such as repositioning it in the back room, to the right of the doorway.

I have always found the various inspectors helpful, but that does not mean they won't insist on what they think is right.

Colin Bignell