Thickness of ceiling joists in loft

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But it is obviously not cheap enough. Belgium is in the process of making all commuting journeys by train totally free. This is what I call a really far-sighted move.
MM
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Huge wrote:

house,
the
giving
converted
park
people
That is a stupid idea. All it will do is encourage even more commuting into a city centre. If you did that here, commuter and tube trains would be even more overcrowded than now.
Commuting needs to be discouraged, not encouraged. It's the only way to stop London sucking up the entire UK economy.
Mal
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Mike Mitchell wrote in message
Belgium is in the process of

NO! You mean "paid for", by taxing the population who do not use public transport. There is no such thing as "free transport", apart perhaps from walking!
Regards Capitol
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^ majority of the

Spot on.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:29:56 -0000, "Capitol"

Er, my council tax pays for schools. I don't have any children. Go figure!
MM
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Mike Mitchell wrote in message ...

from
Those children will pay your pension and healthcare costs when you are old! ( If you're fortunate enough to survive that long.) Regards Capitol
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Tsk, tsk. That particular Ponzi scheme will collapse long before any of us get any benefit from it.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
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On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:52:57 -0000, "Capitol"
And the Belgium taxpayers are paying for free commuting which benefits their environment, their health and their children's safety by having fewer cars on the roads.
MM
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Mike Mitchell wrote in message ...

NO! There is no such thing as good free public transport. Providing it at the expense of the majority taxpayers, simply distorts the market and enables an elite minority to continue with an unsustainable way of life. The number of cars on the road decreases by a negligible amount. The much vaunted London congestion charge only increased rush hour bus usage by 111 people per day( if I have done the sums correctly). If you wish to live in a socialist state, where everyone WILL use public transport, then take the honest solution and ban personal ownership of any means of transport (including bikes) and increase income tax to pay for it! Then try to get re-elected!
As a further comment, how many people become sick from say colds as a result of using public transport and what does this cost? It is reckoned that the infection rate on a transatlantic jumbo jet is close to 100%!
The problem is not public transport, but centralised employment! Public transport is an uneconomic patch applied to cover up the real problem.
In 1970, 90% of people in new towns worked locally. Today, it's less than 30% as a result of employment instability together with lack of housing mobility. Public transport has no hope of providing the transport routes required!
Regards Capitol
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My God such illogical clap-trap...

Public transport reduces pollution levels, which saves people's lungs.
What is being subsidised to the hilt is vehicles. If vehicle users paid the full amount for their usage and ramifications, fuel would be twice the amount. They do not pay the full cost of traffic police, health due to accidents and pollution, lost working days due to accidents etc.
Vehicles are clearly not in the free market, no more than public transport, but public transport saves lives.

Probably not. It also keep 100s of cars out of the centre reducing air and noise pollution and less accidents. Ken is right! Extend the congestion zone.

Even in extreme right wing regimes, they realise public transports is a necessity and subsidise it.
< snip drivel >
I detect some sense...

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Capitol wrote:

Hear hear!
Its also worse than that, the real problem is that car being up till now ceap and convenient, and towns being expensive and dificult tpo park in, most major large volume ot latge o]bject stores now have to be placed on or near arterial roads, this increassing traffic levels enormously.
Instead of driving into town, parking by teh electrical shop, one drivbes miles into the nearest Curry=s, to find they haven't got what you want in stock, don't understand your questions, and in any case will have to arrange to have it delivered sometime next year.
I teh beginning, we had towns with roads going through them, As journeys increased in length, we built roads around them. This was the last sesnible idea road planners had.However since then we have ben not releiving traffic in towns, but banning it altogether , thus forcing intra town traffic, and most of the shops at which you need to load goods directly into the car, not to mention businesses, out along the places you are stil allowed to drive - the by passes. The net result is that we have reversed the trend of separating localised traffic from arterial traffic, and every major road near any major town is now blocked up by short haul traffic.

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The
in
result
I would agree that public transport is a public health issue.
During my career, I have sometimes had jobs where I needed to use public transport (train into London, follwed by a tube trip), and some where I have to drive.
Every winter that I have had to use public transport to get to work, I have had 3 or 4 bad colds, and at least 2 days off work. Every year I had to drive, I had no colds at all.
If ever something infectious is released on the Underground, you can be sure most of London will catch it.
Mal
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wrote:

Both Capitol and you seem to think it is a bad thing to get a cold and challenge the immune system. Britain has the highest rate of childhood asthma in the world! We need to stop using crap like antibacterial washing up liquid and eat a peck of dirt a day. (Actually, a peck might be a bit too much, but you know what I mean.)
Not only does public transport strengthen your immune system for later life when, faced with things like cancer or other horrid diseases, we're all going to need a healthy immune system, but also you get to mix with other members of society and have to adapt to their funny little ways, just as they adapt to yours. This is another healthy aspect which Britain is missing more and more. And we all know what huge problems we have in Britain trying to establish a cohesive society, when that daft old bat Thatcher tried to pretend there was no such thing.
Moreover, on public transport, especially trains, you can read a book or the newspaper (and get up to date on current affairs), you can do some work, perhaps write a novel. Cooped up in private cars we are continually faced with danger, it is unhealthy, antisocial, dangerous to kids and the elderly and costs the NHS millions to patch up all the injuries cars cause. Sure, lorries also cause accidents, but most lorry drivers have had to have extra training to drive their lorries and are more responsible drivers by and large (excluding white van man, of course - they should all be dragged to the side of the road and bludgeoned to death with a pickaxe).
MM
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I have

to
The NHS will recoup the cost from the driver's insurance company.
Neil
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[25 lines snipped]

Utter, complete, total and unmitigated hogwash. If you're lucky, you might have room to inhale. You won't be able to read because you can't sit down and you need both hands to hold on, and even if you could, the seats are too small and too close together. Besides, you'll be too busy making phone calls to rearrange your life around the unreliability of the "service".

Sat in a comfy seat, listening to our choice of music, at our choice of temperature and not inhaling the delicate bouquet of the festering armpits of our "fellow" travellers, at a fraction of the cost and far greater convenience than public transport can ever provide.
--
"The road to Paradise is through Intercourse."
[email me at huge [at] huge [dot] org [dot] uk]
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On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:48:50 -0000, "Neil Jones"

One in twenty drivers are uninsured.
MM
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wrote:

Which is why we have the Motor Insurers Bureau.
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Mike Mitchell wrote in message ...

have
I believe in freedom of choice for the individual. I am perfectly happy for you to travel on unreliable, uncomfortable, filthy, unhygienic public transport. Please feel free to get as many colds etc as you wish. I would not deny you this vital opportunity. However, I would ask you to pay the full costs of travelling in this manner and not ask those of us who do not wish to join, to pay for your enjoyment. When you are faced with meeting the true costs, you may wish to pursue gainful employment in another location and discover the joys of reliable, comfortable and clean, personal transport locally.
Regards Capitol
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<snip>
have
have
sure
True, there are potential public health issues, but they are not unknown and in themselves are not an argument for not using and developing a public transport system. The risks of infectious agents being released on the tube network are certainly known about by the security services, they've been talked about often enough.
Despite the presence of infectious diseases in London (TB, for instance) evidence does not back up the various catestrophic predictions, because the majority of people using transport systems do remain healthy and free from serious infection. If what "might" happen was actually "likely" to happen then surely this would not be the case? (and I know that TB is a serious health issue, and that numbers of sufferers in large cities such as London are growing, but it is not at serious epidemic proportions, and if public transport networks were such high risk places then the numbers would have grown at an unstoppable rate).
A few years ago I remember listening to one of the 5-minute pieces on R4 Today programme (I think). A research paper apparently showed that extroverts were less likely to suffer from common colds and other infectious diseases than introverts. The conclusion of the paper was that the more people you came into contact with then the more your body's immune system was able to deal with potential infections. Isolating yourself from the masses would in that case be a strategy of folly in the long run.
A doctor of my acquaintance a number of years ago was convinced that another winning strategy for avoiding nuisance infections was simply to wash your hands when you first arrive at work each morning and at home in the evening. Reasoning went that a lot of infections are contracted through contact. Person with a cold hurries to the tube station in the morning. Has slight runny nose, gets wiped with hands. They hang onto the straps (handrails now) and a few minutes later you hang onto the same strap. You get to work, pick up your pencil, chew the end of it, or wipe your mouth or another such contact. Cold virus now introduced quite happily into your body. Washing your hands reduces your chances of this (no need for any of this anti-bacterial paranoia handwash stuff - normal soap is fine).
Whether this has any basis in fact or not I couldn't tell you, but it's a reasoned line of thinking, and is after all a similar basis to the practise of surgeons scrubbing up before performing surgery.
-- Richard Sampson
email me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk
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and
the
TB cases will probably grow. Spitting seems to be a major cause of transmissionm, and it seems to be on the increase.

infectious
There are more than 250 variations on the cold virus - you won't become immune to them all in an entire lifetime.

another
evening.
work,
such
practise
Makes perfect sense, and probaby works too.
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