Fully rewiring a kitchen

[A Bloke]

I'm currently rewiring my kitchen. Fortunately, I had the foresight to buy a 100m reel of twin and earth just before the new colours were brought in, but I've been thinking: what if I hadn't done this, what would be the correct process for running a new ring main to the kitchen to replace the shonky ~70's installation (complete with no earth sheathing in the sockets, cables set directly into concrete floor about

15mm below the surface, sockets screwed to skirting-board about 20mm above ground level, etc)? Is it simply not possible to DIY this type of work legally any more?

And, as a secondary question; given that my opinion of NICEIC, and those responsible for these additional layers of bureaucracy, is essentially "Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em vigorously, right in the eyes." what problems would I have selling the house if I carried the work out myself, in accordance with 16th edition IEE regs (of which I do possess a copy, and which all of my work materially conforms to), with the new T&E colours, but didn't have all the correct bits of paper (whatever the correct bits of paper are...)?

Couldn't I just claim that I was never given any magic bits of paper, get an "approved" electrician in to check everything measures up, and issue me with the appropriate paper? What are the magic bits of paper? Just an invoice from an "approved" electrician - or some form of pretty certificate?

Forgive me if this has been covered before - I've googled for NICEIC and read zillions of the resultant threads, but none of the stuff I read answered these questions. Feel free to point me at an appropriate thread/URL on google if this has been done to death already.

Cheers.

[A Bloke]

Oops, never mind. The magic incantation I need for google was "Part P", not "NICEIC". It seems that Part P is being largely ignored and treated with the contempt it so rightfully deserves. Smashing. This makes me proud to be British.

[John Rumm]

Not that important really, old colours were allowed after part P and new colours were allowed before it - so the colour does not actually definitively date the work.

It is entirely legal and possible. The correct way would be to submit a building notice application to the local building control department and pay the required fee[1] and make the work available for inspection at the required times.

[1] there is much controversy here and differing approaches between councils. The orifice of the deputy prime minister (the low lives responsible for "part taking the pee") have produced a memo stating that the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer. However many councils are seeking to do so, resulting extra charges over and above that of the BNA - sometimes £200 or more extra.

Can't say I have ever felt that charitable toward them... but to each his own! ;-)

The potential problems are the theoretical ones of not complying with building regulations (5K fine and all that) - although I get the impression that building control only pursue that sort of sanction in the most dire cases of illegal bodgery where other forms of negotiation have proved fruitless (any BCOs care to comment?). If the work is all to standard then I can't see them getting too excited about it.

The second issue is that of paperwork. Chances are this will pan out much like the equally daft bit of legislation requiring replacement windows/doors to be notified (or installed by relevant quango member) - conveyancers may be hot on it for a year or so and then will lose interest. Time will tell.

You could - probably does not make any difference...

Not sure - test results from electrician and completion notice from building control perhaps.

Do a google search of this group on "Part P" - be prepared for a long read!

[Andrew Gabriel]

It's not that the inspection costs ought not be passed onto the consumer, it's that this is what the building notice cost is already paying for. Therefore, the council is not permitted to ask you to pay again for an inspection, nor is it permitted to ask you to get an electrical company to inspect the installation. The inspections were supposed to be done by the BCO when they visit, like they do for other such work. Most councils seem to think they need to use Part P registered electricians, but this isn't so. They can even accept your own inspection if they think you are competent, and this has certainly been done in some cases.

[River Tramp]

The BC office I work in has not taken anybody to court (for a B Regs issue) for 15 years or so. The biggest change in recent has been people not being able to sell their houses because they didn't have a completion certificate. Owners carrying out works large and small seem very anxious to get the bit of paper and appear to aware of the problems they'll have without it. Part P is still relatively new, and we haven't had anybody trying to regularise (ie get a certificate after the work has finished having not told us beforehand) electrical works, and not sure they could do without exposing cable runs. The other option is some form of indemnity insurance, certainly it seems available for extensions without permission, I wonder if it would work for Part P.

IanC

[River Tramp]

True, but each Council sets its fees, so if it structures its fees correctly it can charge for the cost of electrical inspections. Whether the additional bit as required by some authorities is "illegal" I don't believe has been tested, it's just the subject of an ODPM memo which many LA's are ignoring.

IanC

[A Bloke]

[snip, very comprehensive reply]

Thanks John, that's much appreciated.

Yep, I've managed to do that now and I see it really has been done to death! I am going to continue to completely ignore part P, do the work I know I am competent and able to do, and deal with any "issues" that are raised if/when I come to sell the house. This is very much a "thin end of the wedge" thing and I think that the more people (both professional and DIY) who "forget" to play along with the paper-trail, the better for everyone in the long run.

[John]

Apparently East riding of Yorkshire have employed a Part P BCO. Whether just one can cope with the flood (not) of notifications is anyones guess

[John Rumm]

Another option would presumably be for the vendor to simply state that work was completed by them to an acceptable standard but without the required paperwork. They would be happy to discuss what was done with potential buyers or their expert agents should it be required, and additionally the buyer may authorise their own checks (at their own expense) should the feel the need.

I can't see many people balking at a house purchase over a lack of certification for wiring. Especially when you considder that this is the situation they have always been in until now anyway - and even if they have paperwork it does not tell them anything about the state of the wiring prior to the current regulations taking effect.

[River Tramp]

John

I don't think the problem is the purchasers, more being picked up by a surveyor or the mortgage company.

I wonder if it's the sort of thing surveyors are going to look for automatically with the home buyers report.

IanC

[meow2222]

Then again there are always some with no sense, easily scared by what are basically CYA clauses in surveys. Plus lenders tend to behave stupid to try and cover themselves against every eventuality.

Then there are people who are really quite lost. I know one who was scared by the fact that the DHW header tank was above her kids bedroom. But no, she wasnt worried about the subsidence!

But after someone's paid for 2 surveys they soon grow up. Usually.

NT

[Christian McArdle]

Indeed, this is what I'm expecting with my loft conversion, provided that getting my equipment recalibrated (out of date by a few months) is cheaper than buying an inspection.

I suspect that given a certificate with all the right numbers on, they'll just rubber stamp it. For this purpose, I might even add my (electronic engineering) BEng to my name for the first time in my life.

Christian.

[Christian McArdle]

Just get a periodic inspection report before you sell. Most buyers would be happy with that. It's more than they usually get. Alternatively, do it properly and submit a building notice beforehand. That way is entirely above board and legal.

Christian.

[Ben Blaukopf]

The current agreement with my BCO is that I'll let them know what I'm doing when, document it with photos, and they'll drop round for the odd inspection. I'll then hand them all the test certificates at the end, and they'll get an electrician round to take a look before signing it off. Obviously it took a bit of talking to them to reassure them I had some idea what I was doing.

So far they haven't actually been round "because there isn't much to see on a CU change anyway". Given I paid them the grand total of 100+VAT, I seriously doubt they'll actually get an electrician round at any point, and it surely won't be for a full PIR. Funnily enough, I stuck MEng on the BNA too. It wasn't electrical engineering though...

Ben

[Mogweed]

Given I paid them the grand total of 100+VAT, I

I had a builder in doing some general building work and he does electrical work as well. The house needed completely rewiring so he did it for us and we complied with Part P and got the BCO involved.

I paid the sum of £58.75 to the council, who then employed a local firm of electricians to do the tests and inspections - and it was a thorough test and inspection. The guy unscrewed various switches and sockets to test for numerous things, even tightness of terminal screws. He was there about 6 hours in total.

Then they billed the council £200.

This was the system for about 2 months until the council realized that they couldn't afford to do it this way. They now use one of their own employees to do Part P tests and inspections, and the price that the public pay is still the same at £58.75.

Mogweed

[Fash]

It may be above board and legal but not necessarily helpful. Certainly my council will accept the Building control notice but say they have no way to issue a completion certificate, in which case it's better never to apply.

Stephen

Christian McArdle wrote: