Debris in tap water... help needed

[Toby]

You really need to do this to rule out problems your side, until you do this, it will be hard to press the water company to resolve it, as you are not 100% sure the problem is theirs...

Do do you have a main stop tap inside your house that turns everything off? If so, it is reasonably easy to turn this off, disconnect the output pipe from this (the one that connects to the rest of your plumbing in the house, usually out the top) and then connect a hose to this to see if you still get crap from this point.

if it is a 15mm pipe, then a 1/2" hoselock type tap connector should just screw on the top, if it is 22mm then it is usually 3/4" (In this link, you will need to use the supplied white adaptor ring for a 15mm c*ck, and remove the ring for a 22mm c*ck)

the length of hose to the absolute minimum (Maybe just a meter, and direct the flow into a/several clean bucket(s)) then see what you get from here.

When you disconnect your house plumbing, you will get water draining, so if you turn off your water first, then turn on the lowest tap, then flush the toilet to activate the ball valve in the loft tank, then open any other mains water taps you have, this should drain most of it first, but there may still be several litres of water in there, so have a bucket ready. (You can easily stop the flow with your finger, as it will not be under mains pressure any more)

Toby...

[Dave Liquorice]

"Wash their hands".... ho ho. B-)

Were the sample(s) tested taken as "clean" or "dirty" examples? IMHO they ought to have tested worse case ie from the kitchen tap when other taps are in use.

[neverwas]

Andrew's proposal seems the most definitive test. But another (and less invasive) experiment would be to use the stopcock in the road (which you mentioned you had accessed before) to reduce the maximum flow rate with the 2 taps to what you get usually with just the kitchen tap. Then, if you still get the debris with the 2 taps running, it looks less likely to be the result of the flow rate from outside your property and more something within it. But it can't of course prove the converse.

Also, I think we've all assumed that you get debris in the water from both the kitchen tap and the outside tap when running both. If not.....

[None]

Thanks for the detailed advice chaps, I think I will do neverwas' stopcock experiment first. What seems to happen is the tap that is put on first at full whack will have minimal debris, while the tap that is opened second (also at max but with a trickle flow) will be filled with it. I guess when I get home I'll have to play around and see what happens when both taps are on at half power etc.

[george (dicegeorge)]

xxx

xxxxxxx

if you're going to attack the stopcock outlet with wd40 and spanners etc I guess that will be quite a job, and maybe even a problem reconnecting it, so while you're at it why not add a junction with a short tap and pipe coming off so that you can quickly prove what's happening whenever the council pop in unexpectedly to inspect it?

[g]

[None]

Ok, just went home for lunch hour and tested this out. Whether or not the tap in our side passage is opened first or second, it is the tap which is allocated the pressure. So, if I run the kitchen tap full whack then nip outside and open the side passage tap to full, it comes on at full pressure while the kitchen tap will trickle. And interestingly, a load of dirt comes out of the side passage tap at the high pressure in addition to the kitchen tap's dirt content with the trickle flow.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm finding this tough to explain...

[Toby]

Makes sense to me!

Just had another thought - what type of boiler do you have in your property? Is it a sealed system with a pressure guage on or near the boiler?

If so, what is the pressure showing on the gauge when all your taps are off, then again after you turn the water off in the road and then run the taps to relese any pressure in the system?

Toby...

[None]

No, its not a sealed system, regular old boiler....

[Toby]

Okay - so you should have a smaller header tank for the boiler? Is the water inlet to this tank above the water level?

Toby...

[None]

Do you mean the small expansion tank beside the main water tank in the attic?

[Toby]

Yes, this one keeps your radiator circuit topped up, and absorbs any contraction and expantion in the system due to the water heating, so may contain nasty brown water!

This tank will have a mains water feed to it, but this must be above the water line, just like the main tank - is it?

Toby...

[None]

I'll have a check when I get home... its tricky to get to, as the flooring aint the most secure up there. But surely that couldn't be siphoning water down to the tap?!

[Toby]

It depends on the type of valve, it is certainly not impossible. Not that likely, but again, until you find the cause of the problem, you need to rule out as much as you can.

Another test for you to try if that looks all OK...

Run the cold water in the kitchen for 1 minute (I assume this will not produce bits in the water if it is run alone)

Now flush the loo

Wait 10 minutes without running any water anywhere.

turn off water in the road

now place a bucket under your kitchen tap and turn the cold on to release the pressure

Do you get any bits, and how much water came out?

when the water has stopped (or slowed to a trickle) empty the bucket and then leave the tap on with the bucket underneath and flush the loo

the water in the pipe to the loft should now empty into the bucket - any bits in there now?

Toby....

[None]

Just in the door now and checked the expansion tank... water level is definitely below the mains inlet just like attic tank.

[None]

lol... I'll have to wait until later this evening to try that experiment as there is zero chance the others in the house right now can go so long without using water somewhere. If there are bits present, what will this indicate?

[Andrew Mawson]

trickle

Whether or

explain...

OK a long shot, but MANY years ago I had an odd 'dirty water' issue having recently moved into a house 'done up' by a builder. He had connected the hot cylinder the wrong way round so the coil from the boiler was infact the hot water source, and the boiler water was circulating in the jacket that should have been the coil. Nothing showed up until I turned off the water feed to change a tap washer, but the water carried on flowing then got very dirty and the radiators started gurgling. Builders - don't you love 'em

AWEM

[Toby]

I doubt this would be the problem, as the issue is with the mains water - if the main storage part of the hot cylinder was connected to the mains water feed directly, I would have expected it to have either exploded or overflowed quite a bit by now!!

...this is assuming the OP has a normqal vented cylinder of course!

Toby...

[Toby]

If it all runs clear, then it does demonstrate it is probably not in the house, as if you run clean water through it, then shout off the mains water, then drain down your system, and it is all clean, then any dead legs that could be causing a problem, should demonstrate their problem in this test.

Toby...

[None]

Well, I shall certainly give it a go later on. I was thinking of getting my plumber over soon if I'm still stumped, but he will be too probably! We have had issues with the supply for years and nobody knew what to tell me, its only now that I have more or less pinpointed when it is occurring that I may stand a chance of having it rectified.

[neverwas]

Just down from the ladder:

o makes sense so far; o I'd rather assumed you got a greater flow with both taps open 'cos they both gushed. From what you say now, I assume the side passage tap gives a much greater flow than the kitchen tap can - eg the passage tap fills a bucket significantly faster than the kitchen tap. That's the only way I can see that opening the 2 taps together can give you a greater total flow and so flush debris from the company's pipe.