Conservatories - is this good or bad?

[bigbria]

Hopefully, this is the right group....

I'm early in the process of looking at a conservatory and I've had my first quotation. I'm not unhappy about the quote (although I haven't seen others yet) but I'm not really sure what a lot of it means, and whether its good or bad, or what the other options may be from other suppliers or whether some of it is standard suff being sold as premium features etc etc. I'm hoping some of teh experts here can give me a few pointers so that I can better understand the differences between this quote and others I get.

This is some excerpts from the quote spec:

(The conservatory is manufactured by Shield)

Fully steel reinforced frames throughout Ovalo style glazing bead Character slim line frames

Frame Glazing - 28mm sealed units with 20mm air gap (K glass) Roof glazing - K Glass Roof pitch 25 degrees

(I know what K Glass is, which is why I specified it, including the roof - are these units the usual size?)

Gutter height 2100mm Transom drop 360mm

Gaskets - Black clear line glazing

Ventilation includes 2 roof vents

Variable roof pitch from eaves level up Feature OG guttering system Fully welded frames

Foundations - min 600mm to max 1000 mm depending on independent survey

New floor 100mm hardcore, 50mm sand binding, 1200 gauge damp proof visqueen membrane under 50mm jablite insulation, then cast 150mm concrete floor slab with A142 mesh steel reinforcement

Dwarf wall is 600mm high, 100mm thick inner skin, 100mm thick outer skin, 50mm cavity with 5 wall tiles per sq m, 25mm polystyrene insulation

Building regulation code 4 sttraight or stepped lead flashing to rear truss

If anyone wants to guess how much it is, feel free. Its 3350mm wide by

3650mm projection, woodgrain uPVC, Victorian style, hexagon end, 3 sides glazed, etc etc...

Also, whats a typical payment schedule? With this order it looks like

1/3 deposit, and 90% of the whole cost paid by the time the conservatory is delivered to the site.

Thanks for any pointers

Brian

[Andy Hall]

As good as any. I'll comment where I can.

Some is relatively standard.

Reinforced what? PVC? What is the rest of the frame construction?

This is decorative.

That's pretty good. Find out whether the beading is internal.

It's good to go for glass throughout. Plastic roofs are not as good - noisy and hard to clean.

This is fairly normal. Is it enough for you if standing near the edge?

Fairly typical. Needs to be in balance with the rest of the windows.

That's important.

Decorative.

Good that they are taking the trouble.

Good that it's insulated. Note that normally the floor will be a concrete oversite - i.e. not final finish which is usually done separately. You can go for a screed if you are tiling, battens if you are going for a wooden floor or insulating sheets if carpet tiles. I would recommend tiles or perhaps slate. It is easy to clean, feels cooler in summer and warm in winter.

I'd ask for thicker insulation, although it's not critical for such a low wall.

The important thing is that it is tied into the wall and sealed properly as well. Certainly a lot better than the adhesive stuff.

£12-15k?

I would not agree to that.

20-30% up front. 20-30% on completion of base. Remainder on satisfactory completion, not just delivery to site.

If you are talking about the kind of figure mentiioned above then they can afford to lose 10%. It doesn't give you enough leverage. Try and retain at least 20%

Should you get into a dispute, and hopefully you won't having a situation where you owe them no more than £5k is advantageous. This is the level below which any dispute that enters litigation is heard in the Small Claims Division of the court and generally the consumer does well out of that.

I would also ask the supplier(s) for the name, office and mobile phone numbers of the person who is going to take responsibility for managing the project during the construction. Typically, base work is subcontracted, and proper supervision is very important. Ask for that person to visit you before signing up and ask them to describe in detail how a project runs, how often they atttend and so on.

Above all, make it clear to the supplier that you expect them to do what they say they will do, and then hold them to it. Check any plans *very* carefully before signing, especially details on window transoms, door opening directions etc. Make sure that you get what you want and not what they think you want. Don't accept anything other than an excellent standard of work and materials.

I did all of the above, and am glad that I did.

.andy

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[Nick Brooks]

I'd agree with Andy but add the following:-

Increase roof pitch to 30deg to assist in shedding snow.

Consider underfloor heating - including the pipework at this stage will cost very little and you could connect it upto the heating system later. Also replace Jablite with Celotex to improve insulation.

Don't bother with Argon filled units - it tends to leak out over the years.

When snagging the job at the end, be INCREDIBLY thouough. Anything you miss then will always be annoying.

Get a guarantee thet means something. Most conservatories leak eventually. Mine came with a 10 year warranty

Nick Brooks

[bigbria]

Aluminium, although I see it doesn't actually say so in the spec, but it does describe the roof structure as "structural grade aluminium rafters, thermally clad with uPVC"

OK - what difference will it make?

If you mean am I close to 2.1m tall, no, I'm not :-)

OK. Thanks One thing I haven't decided on yet is whether to install air-con. I'm not too bothered about the running costs, and I'd certainly rather have it cooler than too warm, but I don't know whether a) I'll need it and b) how much noise I'll get from a unit capable of cooling a space of something like 10 cubic metres

I like slate (and indeed currently have a slate quarry as a client!) so it will either be that or tile

The actual conservatory is £8,500, total including base and other stuff is £11,300

All good stuff....thanks

Brian

[Set Square]

If they do everything specified here, it sounds like a good professional job - and certainly not what you would get from a bunch of cowboys. It's likely to be at the upper end of the price spectrum too!

A gutter height of 2100mm sounds low to me. Presumably the doors go right up to gutter level. It would feel a lot lighter and airier if you could raise the gutter by 400 or 500mm, have the transoms at door head height, with further glazing (some of it opening) above. If you do this, though, you'll have to watch roof apex height - particularly if there are any upstairs windows in the wall to which the conservatory is joined. [Have a look at a few demo conservatories in garden centres etc. - with various roof heights - and you'll see what I mean about airiness. Some are rather claustrophobic.]

Try to make sure that the flashing is not only keyed into the brickwork (rather than glued to the surface) but is also stepped. [Mine is simply set into a slot cut with an angle grinder. It hadn't occurred to me that it wouldn't be stepped - and I wish that had been in the spec.]

NO WAY should you pay over all the money before the work is complete. 20% is a reasonable amount to hold back until you are *totally* satisfied. Any less, and they can easily walk away without fixing any snags.

[My suppliers went broke when my conservatory was built but not de-snagged. Fortunately, I was holding a couple of grand back - and I was able to negotiate a price reduction with the liquidators to cover loss of warranty *and* finishing it myself (including obtaining the *right* patterned glass panels etc.)].

[bigbria]

hadn't considered snow to be a problem, but I suppose it could be.I think we've only had 2 days snow in the last three years here thats amounted to anything like a settled snowfall (I live in the south east)

Doesn't that put you in the realms of building regs? So far I'm managing to avoid planning permission and I'm happy to keep away from BR as well.

OK...I'l mention it as an option

AIUI, the bigger benefit is in K glass over other, with a marginal increased benefit (and cost) with Argon filled

I'm that kinda guy :-)

It has a 10 year insurance backed guarantee

Thanks for your thoughts

Brian

[Andy Hall]

Security. You don't want people being able to pop out the DG units from outside.

That's OK then. It is a touch lower than typical ceiling heights though.....

It's not hard to add afterwards. You do need to think about where the pieces will go. A decent air conditioner is in two parts with the bulk of the works like the compressor in the outside piece. The inside unit can be quite small and only has a small fan to draw the air through. Quite quiet.

OK. Do watch out for screed depths and also allow a good amount of time after the screed is laid before tiling. This is to allow the concrete to cure by absorbing the water chemically etc. To keep dust down at this stage, you can wash over the floor with a 1:6 PVA and water mix.

I was thinking of the all-in price. Not far out and if it's good quality and well done not a bad price.

Do watch out for the extras like wiring and sockets.

I have left by dwarf wall in the natural brick and I had the bricklayer put in boxes for sockets etc. as he went. This means that you get a neater result, without the need to chop out afterwards.

I also had the situation of a door at either end and so I installed two 40mm waste pipes to use for running cables in the concrete under each doorway. Some polypropylene rope was threaded through before the walls were built to act as a draw string.

THis illustrates that it's worth sitting down with a notebook before building starts and noting as many things as you can so that bits get included at the right time.

You're very welcome. I did have a few problems which were all down to a lack of supervision. These were all addressed before the final payment was made.

I tend to prefer to go for something of good spec. and quality rather than seek the cheapest price. However, I made it very clear that I wouldn't accept second best on anything and that I simply want people to do what they say they are going to do.

I also arranged to be working at home for the base construction and the final completion stages.

.andy

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[Andy Hall]

As long as you have separate controls for it from those in the house, no. You are under the size limitation, but you do have to maintain the barrier between house and conservatory as though the latter is outside.

I gree with Nick. It is at least twice as good for a given thickness as styrofoam. Costs about £15 a 2440x1220 sheet rather than about £5, but in the context of the project, negligible.

Correct.

.andy

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[bigbria]

Ah. Point taken.

Hmm.....so it is. I'll look again at that.

One side of the conservatory is going to be close (less than 1m) to the fence next to my neighbour's property, so I'm thinking I'd put the air con unit on the wall on that side so it won't get in the way (except when I want to clean the windows on that side!) I did think of having a full heigh wall on that side, but I'd prefer glass - with the right lighting inside, and dark outside, I'll get more light reflection back off the glass, and what's outside will then be invisible anyway. I'll also probably install an exterior power point on that side as well, and some external lights set into the outside of the dwarf wall (on the end and the other side)

You can be sure that I won't be the one doing the tiling!

OK....at least I have a basis for some comparisons when other quotes come in.

Exactly what my thinking is - I just don't know enough about what's a good spec and what isn't :-)

I work from home anyway, so I'm going to be driven mad by the builders the whole time

Brian

[Andy Hall]

You may find that you are limited by virtue of the roof slope and avoiding upstairs windows.

Good idea. If you are going for aircon potentially, think about running in a dedicated circuit for it. You may need more than 13A if you go for a larger unit.

This was really to avoid the dust while you wait. The recommendation is a good 3-4 weeks after final concrete and screed and it will otherwise be dusty.

You soon will. :-)

If you do the normal thing of supplying copious tea, it's a good reason to take a look at what is happening.

.andy

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[Pete C]

Hi,

Bear in mind an outdoor a/c unit can be a bit noisy and blows out a plume of hot air, this could be a nuisance to your neighbour depending on what the fence is like and what's on the other side.

cheers, Pete.

[Simon Stroud]

Also you will ideally need access to a drain of some kind if you don't want a constant drip...drip...

e.g. on our Mitsubishi split unit that we have in the conservatory the indoor unit generates condensate when cooling and the outdoor unit does when heating (it does an "in reverse" heat pump action for heating in winter which is VERY effective). The drain pipe from the indoor unit goes along with the refrigerant pipes and pops out and into the side of a rainwater downpipe just adjacent. Similarly the drain on the bottom of the outdoor unit.

On the wall is fine for the outdoor unit. With ours I fretted for ages about having to build a little concrete base for it to sit on but in the end it went up on the wall above head height. It looked like a big unit when it was sitting there waiting to be installed, but once up on the wall it seemed to become a surprisingly acceptable size. And not too noisy.

Regards, Simon.

[Martin]

Hi All,

I'm far from being an expert on these matters but ....

With regards to the guarantee is it not a good idea to make sure it's under-written? Doesn't that ensure that if the company went bankrupt (as they often conveniently do!!) that you still have a valid guarantee to fall back on.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!!

Cheers.

[bigbria]

It might warm the fence up a little, but I don't think the hot air outflow is any hotter than the temperature on a hot day, so I doubt it will actually damage the fence (which is mine, anyway). Its a 6 foot high wooden overlap panel fence, so not much noise, and almost no heat, will get through it from low to the ground.

There's not really anything on the other side of the fence until you get a few metres in, and then there's their rotary washing line, so he might be grateful for the additional drying feature :-)

His patio and general leisure area are across the other side of the garden, so I doubt the noise will matter much either - the actual house on that side is separated from mine by his attached double garage and his pathway down the side of the house into the garden, which enters a good way away from where the conservatory will be.

One thing that did crop up when I was chatting to him this evening though.....

He looked at putting up a conservatory a while back, (which would be on the far side of his garden from where I am) but decided against it because there's an underground pipe running right across where he wanted to put it. (I don't know whether he was told it wasn't possible, or whether he just assumed)

He has a manhole cover under the fence panel in his fence on the

*other* side of the garden, and there's a similar manhole cover right under the fence panel between his garden and mine. It won't be obstructed by the construction of conservatory since I'm not going right to the fence with it, and in any even the only way to access it at present is to remove the fence panel, but I assume that the undeground pipe will then run right under my patio and straight across to my neighbour on the other side.

Am I right to assume that this will be far enough underground not to be affected by the digging for the conservatory base?

(if it matters, the houses are all 12 years old, built on a new purpose built development)

Brian

[Simon Stroud]

claustrophobic.]

de-snagged.

Agreed - hold back a decent amount. BEWARE of any job where you are expected to pay most of it "on delivery of materials". That was one of the main problems with our recent nightmare loft conversion job. You live and learn! On the other hand our many years ago double glazing job was at the other end of the spectrum. Just a small deposit (ISTR £1500) and the main payment on satisfactory completion. Unfortunately the company went bust after delivering (most of) the stuff and half fitting about half of it. And the liquidators seemed rather confused about whether we were debtors or creditors. We got sent various paperwork about attending creditors meetings, which never seemed quite right. We ended up having to shell out a couple of £K to get someone else to finish the job and supply the doors, but overall it worked out very cost effectively. Bit stressful though.

Regards, Simon.

[bigbria]

The conservatory comes with a 10 year insurance backed guarantee (according to the blurb) I haven't investigated further as yet

Brian

[Will]

If the conservatory is going to be that close to your boundary, then I'm sure you'll need planning permission anyway. If you put the aircon unit that side, then I'm glad I'm not your neighbour... I guess that you don't like him much? Our neighbours built their conservatory within two feet of our boundary, whilst we were not in residence, "because the builder rec commended we moved the proposed site." The said conservatory now affords our neighbours direct view into our lounge. Not a happy bunny, though I was daft enough to ignore it, as we were living elsewhere for too long. Now that my conservatory is about to lock horns with theirs, I anticipate that the proverbial is about to hit the fan, and that the planning guys will be giving me grief, for doing what they already got away with...

[Will]

I note that you have already responded to a lot of the points raised in my later posting, though some are still pertinent...

[Andy Hall]

Within specific parameters, planning permission is not required.

If you live in a house you will need to apply for planning permission if the extension or conservatory:

Is more than 4 metres high and within 2 metres of the boundary.

Is higher than the highest part of the *original house.

Is nearer to the highway than the nearest part of the original house, unless there is at least 20 metres between the extension and the highway.

For a terraced house or any house within the Conservation Area, the extension will increase the cubic volume of the property by 50 cubic metres or 10% (whichever is the greater).

For a detached or semi-detached house outside of the Conservation Area, the extension will increase the cubic volume of the property by

70 cubic metres or 15% (whichever is the greater).

Is more than 115 cubic metres in total.

Will cover more than half the area of land around the original house.

.andy

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[bigbria]

Apparently not, but I'm waiting for written confirmation

guess that

Actually we get on very well, and he's already aware of, and comfortable with, the plans.

Won't happen in this case, since the fence is 6 feet high for a greater length than the length of the conservatory.....won't be able to see much but fence on that side :-)

Good luck!

Brian