Water heaters

Page 4 of 5  
KenK wrote:

The single reason developers put in gas appliances is to avoid the expense of gas piping.
In general, electric ranges are MUCH more expensive to operate (although cheaper to install), do not have the range or versatility of gas (gas heats the SIDES of the pot, too), do not adjust their output as quickly (try turning down the heat on a boiling-over pot!), and, in general, are just plain awful.
Look here: <http://electric-range-review.toptenreviews.com/pros-and-cons-of-gas-versus-electric-ranges.html
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What do they do...leave them disconnected? ;-)

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DerbyDad03 wrote:

My bad. Should have read: "The single reason developers put in electric-only appliances is to avoid the expense of gas piping."
The they promote such as a feature. "Visit our new, all-electric, homes today!"
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Not that long ago, some electric utilities used to offer builder incentives to bulid all electric homes. You'd end up with electric baseboard heating, electric hot water, electric dryers, and electric ranges. The builders liked it because besides avoiding the plumbing expense, electric appliances are a few bucks cheaper which made it possible to sell a cheaper house.
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On 4/13/2013 9:22 AM, Robert Neville wrote:

I remember my cousins living in an all electric home built during the late 50's early 60's when nuclear power was going to make electricity so cheap it wouldn't need to be metered. The forces of evil killed cheap nuclear power because cheap energy means a freer people. ^_^
TDD
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People who live in all electric homes will freeze to the core, in winter time power cuts. It is wise to have a backup heat source, and plenty of fuel. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .

I remember my cousins living in an all electric home built during the late 50's early 60's when nuclear power was going to make electricity so cheap it wouldn't need to be metered. The forces of evil killed cheap nuclear power because cheap energy means a freer people. ^_^
TDD
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On Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:31:24 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"

natural gas furnace will STILL allow you to freeze to death.
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A small generator can power the motors and control of a gas or oil furnace. They will not power a heat pump unless you go a lot larger and burn much more fuel that may be hard to come by during a power outage. At around $ 3.50 per gallon for gas you can just about burn money to stay warm... Oil or propane may be much cheaper for the generator if you have a lorge one.
The house I live in has a heat pump, but I have a wood stove in the basement. I do not use it very much unless it is very cold and I want to spend some time in the basement during the winter. I keep enough wood around to burn for a coupld of weeks if I would have to. I also have a 5 kw generator to power other items as needed. Good thing about the wood stove is that I can cook on it if I really need to.
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Typical furnace takes 500 watts or so, of electric. Easy enough to wire into a generator.
Propane and NG often used for gas ranges, which provide no electric heat. I've done that. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
And without power your typical oil furnace, propane furnace, or natural gas furnace will STILL allow you to freeze to death.
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My furnace takes 300 watts. I measured it. I cold use my battery and inverter for less than 3 hrs continuous run. If I had too, I would skimp on temperature. Or, start a generator.
Greg
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Yes, I measured one too and it was only taking a couple hundred watts. It takes more to get it going for the first few seconds of course. But I was very surprised at how little modern appliances take. During Sandy we ran two houses that included 3 gas furnaces, 4 freezers/refrigerators, two gas hot water heaters with blowers, plus some lights. I did some minimal load management on my end, ie only one furnace at a time, don't know what the neighbor did. And this was with a junko 3500W Chinese generator, with one house on the end of about 150 ft of extension cord. I was expecting some decent voltage drop at the far end, but it held nicely at 115V or so.
I had a Killawatt meter hooked to the extension cord so I could monitor it. That meter is a great tool and very useful for those with generators so you can see what's going on. It reset my expectations on what size generator you really need. I'd say 5KW max would be plenty for me. Before this experience, I was thinking more like 7 or 8.
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Glad to hear someone was successful. My experience has been trying to run one furnace, and no lights. With a 1200 watt ETQ generator (two stroke, junker) it was nice to be able to run a furnace. One time I ran ancient furnace with probably half horse blower motor.
Did you use extension cords indoors, or back feed? . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
Yes, I measured one too and it was only taking a couple hundred watts. It takes more to get it going for the first few seconds of course. But I was very surprised at how little modern appliances take.
During Sandy we ran two houses that included 3 gas furnaces, 4 freezers/refrigerators, two gas hot water heaters with blowers, plus some lights. I did some minimal load management on my end, ie only one furnace at a time, don't know what the neighbor did.
And this was with a junko 3500W Chinese generator, with one house on the end of about 150 ft of extension cord. I was expecting some decent voltage drop at the far end, but it held nicely at 115V or so.
I had a Killawatt meter hooked to the extension cord so I could monitor it. That meter is a great tool and very useful for those with generators so you can see what's going on. It reset my expectations on what size generator you really need. I'd say 5KW max would be plenty for me. Before this experience, I was thinking more like 7 or 8.
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On Apr 14, 10:15 am, "Stormin Mormon"

I did back-feed, the neighbor used extension cords. Why didn't you run a few lights? 100W CFL is only 23W. That's one good thing about them. Come generator time, unless you have a lot of them, they don't amount to much. And if you connect the generator via the panel, you can pretty much leave the whole house powered, then just turn on the lights you need in any area selectively.
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I was surprised how little power refrigerators use from recent investigations. My furnace has slow ramp fan, no surge. Microwaves ovens always use more power than they put out.
Greg
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Please actually try it, some day soon. My last furnace (really simple Miller) ran about 700 watts. So, I bought a marine battery and inverter. Find out that the inverter did not run the furnace. The inverter would go into "low battery" alert, and I never did get the furnace to run.
My new furnace has a circuit board. I'd not want to risk it on modified sine. Generator, yes. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
My furnace takes 300 watts. I measured it. I cold use my battery and inverter for less than 3 hrs continuous run. If I had too, I would skimp on temperature. Or, start a generator.
Greg
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On Apr 13, 10:32 am, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky- finger.net> wrote:

I think that's what he means by "not all that long ago", because there hasn't been anything built that's all electric in the NYC area for at least that long, maybe longer....
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wrote:

"promise" of cheap hydro and atomic power, using electricity made a LOT of sense back then.
It may again some day in the future as well - and the "better" all electric homes didn't have a baseboard heater to be found. Electric central heat was not at all uncommon (and was a lot easier to convert to alternatives when required) and made central air conditioning a simple option. My father was an electrician back in those days and did a LOT of "Gold Medallion" homes. the slogan was "Live Better Electrically"
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I lived in a building that was all electric. Used to be a one bay service garage. The electric bill nearly financially bankrupted me. . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . .
Not that long ago, some electric utilities used to offer builder incentives to bulid all electric homes. You'd end up with electric baseboard heating, electric hot water, electric dryers, and electric ranges. The builders liked it because besides avoiding the plumbing expense, electric appliances are a few bucks cheaper which made it possible to sell a cheaper house.
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wrote:

The "all electric homes" promotion pretty well ended 30 or more years ago - but there were several reasons beyond the expense of installing gas pipes in the house. Back in the seventies the gas distribution network was MUCH more limited than iut is now - and there are still vast areas of both Canada and the USA that are not serviced by natural gas, which left oil, propane or electric as the options. Can't cook with oil - or at least no-one in their right mind would choose it over the 2 remaining options, and propane storage tanks are both a pain and an eyesore on a small urban lot - and both oil anf propane tanks require clear access for dilling, year round. Electricity is just so much simpler in SO many cases.
Also, there is no smell, and no CO issues and I've never heard of a house blowing up from an "electrical leak" outside the home - and the risk of electrical fire is significantly lower than either oil or gas.
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There is a house down the street I didn't consider buying because it was electric.
I buy a house that didn't have gas, used oil. $1500 for gas line. There was 250 gallons that came with the house. I used about 400 gallons that first year, before I switched to gas. I figure gas is not even 1/3 the cost of oil, with that old oil furnace.
My brother saves money using electric instead of oil. He is still paying twice what I pay for gas heat, but his house is bigger.
Greg
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