Water heater wire - conduit or romex?

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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:11:31 -0800, "Jon Danniken"

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On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:11:31 -0800, "Jon Danniken"

He mentioned the original wires so it's not about replacing something else.
Sure it could be a bunch of things, but we're curious which.

And this certainly explains it. Thanks. Even 10 words would have been enough, but the pictures are better.        

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*Thanks Doug. I forgot about running boards. That is an approved method to run small cables on the underside of joists.
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John Grabowski wrote:

Thanks again John, and Doug. Can I just use some 1"x2" strips, or should I get something a little more sustantial?
Jon
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Jon Danniken wrote: ...

Thicker than the cable and make a raceway in which the cable runs to protect from mechanical damage. One could misinterpret the above as meaning to staple to the surface of the furring strips.
At least in older Code, an uninhabited space would allow the cable to be surface-mounted as likelihood of mechanical damage is low since there's no normal access. Never hurts to be better than minimum and newer revisions may have tightened the requirements.
All in all, what I'd run would depend on the conditions in the crawlspace--do you have any vermin problems, is it dry/damp, etc., etc., ...
The surest would be pull some conduit w/ W-rated wire, going down from there to UF cable (only difference is mechanical) to dry location in conduit to Romex...
But to be perfectly clear on a previous point, the ground conductor must be sized same as the conductors. (There are exceptions but they don't apply to this).
--
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"One could misinterpret the above as meaning to staple to the surface of the furring strips."
*That is exactly what was meant. A home made raceway is not required.

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John Grabowski wrote:

If so, might as well just staple to the joists for all the good that would do (whether it's what Code says or no and that surely isn't what I recall it saying). I'd at _least_ put it on the edge w/ only one strip so have the barrier if go to the trouble. The only advantage at all of surface-stapling would be it avoids using the cable as a clothesline but in a crawlspace that's not an issue anyway.
$0.02, etc., etc., etc., ...
--
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dpb wrote:

Alrighty then, sounds like putting up some 2x2s and stapling UF (damp, enclosed location) to the side of them is going to be the ticket.
Thanks again,
Jon
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wrote:

Isn't lots of your existing house wiring in your crawl? All the wire I have ever seen in a crawl is ordinary house wire. And stapled to the bottom of the floor joists. The crawl is ok for ordinary wire. And you can wire tie it to the cold water pipe to get to the top of the heater. You do not need romex, uf, or conduit. Or furring strips.
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Isn't lots of your existing house wiring in your crawl? All the wire I have ever seen in a crawl is ordinary house wire. And stapled to the bottom of the floor joists. The crawl is ok for ordinary wire. And you can wire tie it to the cold water pipe to get to the top of the heater. You do not need romex, uf, or conduit. Or furring strips.
LOL.
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Maybe you should stick to answering questions on topics you actually know something about. This isn't one of them. *Everything* you wrote here is wrong.
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On Nov 16, 11:43pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

I don't see how. I have two houses that both have unfinished crawl spaces under them. All the wiring for the lower floor is run there and stapled to the bottom of the floor joists. The only place holes are made is the bottoms of the walls where the wire up into the walls. Ordinary house wire. The hot water heat is in the crawl in one of them. Disconnect attached to the floor joist above it. Ordinary 10/2 house wire to the disconnect, ordinary 10/2 house wire from the disconnect to the wh. Both houses were built by developers, both houses had all the usual inspections. You're saying both are completely wrong?
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On 11/17/2009 9:25 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

Well, yes and no:
o Regarding stapling *cable* to the bottom of joists in a crawlspace, this is technically a no-no according to the NEC. However, if this truly is a crawlspace, and not part of the inhabitable or usable part of the house, it's hard to see the harm in doing this, since it's unlikely anyone's going to hang anything from the cable. Still not the way I would have done it: would it have killed the "developer" to have bored holes through the joists the way you're supposed to?
o You're a little vague there when you talk about what kind of wiring you're using. When you say "ordinary wire", do you mean just insulated wire (like THHN) without any kind of jacket or covering? If so, then that really is wrong. You can't just run wires in midair. If you're talking about 10/2 *Romex*, then that's OK.
It really helps to be clear about these things so people know what you're referring to.
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
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I'm talking about ordinary NM 14/2, 12/2, 12/3, etc w ground. If it's a crawl space then it's not habitable. If it's habitable then it's a basement. And I have been in the crawl of a LOT of houses around here constructed within the last 20 years and none of them have holes in the floor joists, they all have the wire staples to the bottom of the joists. It's all about how fast you can complete the job and boring holes where not required is not going to make it faster. I've also never seen conduit used to connect a wh. Yes, there is a disconnect if the breaker box can not be seen from the wh. But all I have ever seen from the disconnect to the wh is more wire, not conduit. Usually ziptied to the cold pipe. The only place I have seen conduit used is on outside stuff like ac compressors or hot tubs. Now maybe someone thinks they can interprete the nec to say this is wrong but there ain't no inspectors failing it.
So, again, why does this guy need to do anything besides staple up some NM 10/2 to a disconnect nailed to a floor joist by the wh? Cause if he has a "wet" crawl then he's got way bigger problems than his wh wire.
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Around here, most all electric WH's are installed with a 30 amp receptacle and cord-- the same ones dryers used before the 4 wire was required. They must have passed inspection--- brand new houses are still using that setup. Larry
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*Off hand I don't see a problem with that hook up. Having the plug and receptacle is an acceptable means of disconnection. I guess the original installer figured it was cheaper to do that instead of a 30 amp switch.
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On 11/18/2009 6:38 PM John Grabowski spake thus:

>

Why have a redundant switch when there's already one inside the breaker panel? It's not as if someone's gonna stand there and switch the heater on and off regularly, like a motor on a controller.
--
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In the US you must have a disconnect on all hardwired appliances. It must either be visible from the appliance or lockable. This is so that the device can not be turned back on by someone else while you are working on it. Most of the time this is solved using a $10 disconnect box mounted near the appliance. A plug also works and that's why dryers do not need a disconnect.
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On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:40:12 -0800 (PST), jamesgangnc

It should also be noted the locking device has to be permanently attached to the breaker. Those pins in a LoTo kit do not count. 422.31(B) " The provision for locking or adding a lock to the disconnecting means shall be installed on or at the switch or circuit breaker used as the disconnecting means and shall remain in place with or without the lock installed." If you look about half way down on the left side you will see a legal lock out device.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Chinese%20Drywall/panel%202.jpg
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Code says "running boards". There is *no* requirement to build any sort of wooden "raceway". Simple 1-by lumber, laid flat, is quite adequate.

And *that* is the principal reason for that provision.
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