Vertical Geothermal HVAC

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Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.
TIA Jimmie
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Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area) rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...
They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be like digging for a septic system leaching field... Then you have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging machinery which are quite expensive...
Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas type cooling... Or if you really want to go geothermal consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to see just how much more such a system would cost above and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such fits in with your financial realities...
If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally friendly there are other options such as packaged chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by Robur...
It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as geothermal goes you are way off the track if you are thinking you can use any existing wells for a ground source system so you might want to consider other options or realize the actual cost of going geothermal is much higher than you are presently assuming...
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On 7/1/2012 1:18 PM, Evan wrote: ...

...
Both are quite common installations as well as buried loop in pond/lake if available of sufficient depth.
It all depends on the locale and his problem is purely one of well capacity.
When we installed the WaterFurnace in TN, they were _extremely_ helpful and knowledgable in design and sizing from manufacturer, not relying totally on the local dealer/installer...
--
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On 7/1/2012 2:18 PM, Evan wrote:

permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

Wells are also pretty common. Could be they are a good fit if you don't have a lot of land to bury the tubing.

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If you have a few loops down in the well, it will heat up the water whenever the AC is on. Can you use warmed water for the supply for the household water or will you have another well drilled to supply the household water? If the well water doesn't remain cool enough, youmay have to pump some out periodically, or else continually drain a little water, somehow you need to keep the water cool or the heat exchanger is wating its time and electricity.
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wrote:

That is the problem with using wells as the ground source, you install all the equipment to disperse heat into the ground and then concentrate it into one area... The wells would require you to waste the water to ensure you are constantly drawing fresh cooler water from the aquifer into the well chamber to be in contact with the loops from the geothermal heat exchanger...
Personally I would rather use more electricity or fuel of some kind than waste water for such silly purposes as you may create issues for other users tapped into the aquifer in your immediate area just pumping water out as a cooling tower...
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Why do you continue to pontificate on things you don't understand and make an ass of yourself? Vertical geothermal is similar to ground loop/horizontal geothermal. The essential difference is that, well, it's vertical, not horizontal. And it does NOT require pumping well water out.
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permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.
That's because any meaningful info (i.e. total life cycle cost) of a ground source heat pump would indicate that it isn't generally cost effective when compared to typical alternatives.
Think about it: If there was a lot of cost-data supporting the purchase, wouldn't the sales people be presenting it?
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be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.

Absolutely. ...and if they do present the numbers, be very suspicious of them. Make damned sure you understand the numbers.
I had a company try to sell me a solar hot-water system 30ish years ago (I doubt one of them is in use today). It took me a few minutes to figure out how it "paid for itself", until it suddenly dawned on me; they were double counting the tax credits. Once as a deduction from the cost and they added it in again as "opportunity lost" ("free money" I wouldn't get).
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The above is generally true, from what I've seen. If you look at the total cost, geothermal has a very long payback period and for many applications the payback could be never.
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I think I could have got someone to dig my yard for a distributed system fairly cheap. Lay in the pipes, cover up. Cheap in my mind. My standard HVAC summer cooling costs are very low for my 1000 sqft, with basement home.
Greg
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A closed loop system dumping all of its heat into a well would require wasteful use of the water with in the well as nothing more than a cooling tower, to waste ground water in that manner is absurd and not a very environmentally friendly "geothermal" system... Wasting one resource to lower your carbon footprint is just as bad as using the energy or fuel in the first place...
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Why do you continue to make an ass of yourself and pontificate on subjects that you clearly don't understand?
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There you go again giving answers when you don't even understand the question or the subject. Note the subject: VERTICAL Geothermal. That is geothermal using wells instead of ground loops.

So they can steel them too, right?

The question was whether he could reuse the existing AIR HANDLER. While he probably can't the air handler and coil for a geothermal system operate using refrigerant gas, just like any other heat pump system. The water that is circulating in the loops is NOT circulating in the air handler.

Yeah, that should work great. Instead of getting quotes from 3 reputable firms on systems that are commonly installed now, engage an HVAC design engineer.

He's not as far off track as you are. At least he knows what vertical geothermal, using wells is.
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JIMMIE (somewhere in north or south carolina) wrote:

Can you hear me laughing from up here?
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On Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:08:17 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:

NO SIR, lets keep it that way.
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harry wrote:

Hah.
No, there are plenty of americans who make their living from urban mining.
Urban mining - a term created to describe the uniquely American phenomena of stealing and stripping anything made of metal from public and private infrastructure. An activity that is being practiced by more and more americans as the US reverts to a hunter-gatherer society caused by economic collapse.
Air conditioners are a favorite target. As illustrated by the OP.
Now can you hear me laughing?
Can you hear me now?
Hey JIMMIE - you realize that what-ever you replace it with, it too will be stolen at some point...
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Oren wrote:

Wow, nailing me for a spelling error. That's lame.

The US congress declared him guilty of criminal contempt of congress. That is a conviction in as far as the congress is concerned. Or don't you understand that?
And why are you fighting the exact terminology here? Are you trying to defend Holder? Are you trying to say that what he did was no transgression against your congress?

The only sheep around here are the people of the united states. And they apparently never push back against the theft of their freedom and liberty by their so-called elected and appointed representatives.

I'd lay off the bath salts if I were you.
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I'ts *not* a "spelling error". It's the wrong word; illiteracy.

You're wrong (wow! now that's unusual - not). The Congress cannot find anyone "guilty" of anything. He was cited for the infraction. From there it has to go to a court for trial.

No, just pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual.

Clueless as ever. If we're sheep, and you're living off our backside, that makes you... Let me think...

Thank the Lord, we're not you. I'd have to kill myself if I woke up a two-faced Canuckistani.
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Nowthat is an angle that only a diehard lib could come up with. It was the ATF, part of the DOJ that started and ran the program to sell guns knowingly to buyers they believed were buying the weapons for Mexican drug cartels. They ran it for a year, during which time thousand of guns, including assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, etc were sold and allowed to go into Mexico. Two of those weapons were left at the crime scene where a US border partrol agent was murdered, a year after the gun running began. Dozens of Mexicans have also been killed with the weapons involved. No one was ever arrested as part of the supposed "Sting" operation. That alone is curious. How many thousand guns must be sold before they arrest those involved? This would be like selling cocaine, not for one or two transactions, but for a year, and never arresting anyone. Mighty suspicious. Also, the Mexican govt was never informed.
Now, Congress is trying to get to the bottom of who authorized it, who knew about it, etc. So far, Holder has stonewalled at every turn. The border agent was killed in Dec 2010. Two months later, Holder testified in front of Congress and denied any such gun running operation existed. It took him another 10 months to send a letter to Congress, basically saying, "NEver mind, that letter I sent you last Feb was wrong". If Holder and OBama have nothing to hide, why don't they just hand over the emails, documents, etc that Congress wants? In the end, this will go to a civil judge and that judge will almost certainly decide that the interest of Congress in learning the truth here, including the very strong possibility of perjury or obstruction of justice, outweighs any legitimate claim of executive privilege.
To say this should all go away and is just political is like saying Congress did not have the right to demand all relevant information from Nixon during Watergate and they should just forget about that little burglary. And so far, what Obama is trying to pull, looks a lot like Nixon.

It's illegal under federal law to buy weapons as a straw purchaser for someone else. And the someone else in this case, were Mexican drug cartels. So, DOJ had that and plenty more they could have charged people with. And if the whole thing was legal all along, then WTF was the purpose of fast and furious? Gee, seems like THAT is what Congress is trying to find out.
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