Un-insulated water heater tank by woodstove!

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"Neon John" wrote in message

I live in a snow area and my roof is at a 45 degree angle. Also 2 story house. So basically need a high lift to get up there. Quite easy to access the attic though.
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Bill said (on or about) 03/28/2008 09:59:

A friend decided to run the inlet water for his water heater past the wood stove. Rather than having a tank there, he just ran a loop from just before the heater inlet to the wood stove, created a back-and-forth arrangement of copper pipe and elbows to fit the back side of the stove and then back to the water heater. In the winter, when the stove is running, the water gets pre-heated. In the summer, it absorbs a little ambient temperature.
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Bill wrote:

Just a side note on the old no free lunch. The heat that is preheating your water would have been heating your home instead. That's OK, if your wood energy is cheaper than your electric. If you want to scavenge more heat there's a number of methods.
http://zenstoves.net/Wood.htm has some different ideas. Otherwise some coils on the back of the stove and a pressure relief valve. Of course, copper is expensive these days.
Jeff

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Two things. Yes, the heat "lost" by the tank is gained by the room. So you are saving something but not as much as you imaging.
Second, most of your heat isn't from heating cool water, it's from holding it at temp when no one is using it. You still haven't addessed that issue.
Good luck with it.
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I doubt that second issue. Depending on the insulation, of course, a hot water tank will hold heat for hours/days. While I don't doubt that standby losses are an issue, I don't think that under conditions of normal family use standby losses are greater than the energy it takes to heat the water in the first place.
Do you have any figures, citations, sites to back up that statement?
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More importantly, if the water heater is in habitable spaces then during the heating season, lost heat isn't wasted. It simply contributes to space heating. The opposite is true in summer, of course. If the water heater is in a closet, then one can arrange some clever venting to conduct the heat directly to the attic and outside during cooling season.
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
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Bill wrote:

Overall, I think this is a good idea that might save energy if, as someone else has pointed out, wood is cheaper source of heat than electricity.
There's only one thing that I'd want to verify: what kind of germs are going to grow in water that is above 70F but below the temperature of a regular water heater's tank? They say one reason not to turn your water heater's thermostat too low is that the lower temperatures encourage germs to multiply. If that's true, it seems like this might apply to the tank next to your wood stove.
Of course, I'm not an expert in germ growth or anything. It's just the one possible hitch that I can see, and so far nobody else has mentioned it, so I thought I'd throw it out there.
- Logan
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"Logan Shaw" wrote in message

The water is from the city and is chlorinated.
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Bill wrote:

All right, I did some more research. From what I could dig up, the "growth range" for Legionella bacteria is 20C to 50C (68F to 122F) and the "ideal growth range" is 35C to 46C (95F to 115F). That information is from here:
http://www.relianceworldwide.com/site/fs_legionella.htm
As to whether chlorination kills it, the same site says that a concentration of 10 mg/L will do the trick. According to what I could find other places, chlorinated drinking water seems to contain chlorine in a concentration of something more like 0.5 mg/L. But it may have been initially treated with a much higher level, something on the order of 5 mg/L to 10 mg/L.
Here's a site that talks about chlorinating well water:
http://www.water-research.net/watertreatment/chlorination.htm
So, I don't know, you may be safe. If they kill the bacteria before they send the water down the pipe to your house, there wouldn't be any worry as long as nothing reintroduces it anywhere in the distribution network. But whether that happens is beyond my expertise.
- Logan
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That last does happen. Which is why the recommendation on the temperature of storage hot water systems.
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wrote:

This reinforces a conclusion that I reached long ago. What this world needs is another world war or maybe a pandemic. That way people won't have time to worry about such trivial, almost nil risks.
I swear that some folks, when they get to heaven, will worry that their wings aren't large enough.
Johh, happily living on unchlorinated, untested, good-taasting well water. -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.
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on 3/28/2008 9:59 AM Bill said the following:

How about a coil of soft copper tubing attached to the rear of the woodstove before it goes into your storage tank ( a coil like on the back of a dehumidifer) which would transfer heat by convection rather than radiation?
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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Do that and you start running into the potential for steam, which leads to needing to deal with the related hazards that can come of it being in an enclosed place... (Can you say boiler license, pressure vessel, regulator valve, state inspector, and "expensive"? Sure... I knew you could!)
--
Don Bruder - snipped-for-privacy@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn\'t on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn\'t contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
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Geez, I wonder how all those millions of oil, wood and coal-fired furnace water heating loops manage to operate without a special grant of privilege from Congress? Maybe some day some academic will do a study and figure out why Usenet seems to attract such a concentration of dickhead-isms.
For a simple application like this, a simple water heater P-T relief valve is more than adequate. As far as the bureaucracies go, there is no involvement until a certain large firing rate. In Ga it is 1.5 million BTU per unit. TN's is a little lower - can't recall exactly - but still above 1 million BTU.
John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN I'm going crazy. Wanna come along?
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In Mass, it is pressure. Anything with a 15 psi relief valve is OK, no matter the size. At 15 psi and over you need a different license depending on size. Up to 299 hp you need a special or a 2nd class fireman, at 300 hp you need an engineer full time. etc. There is an exception for very small boilers but I forget the size.
In any case, it is not very difficult to make a loop that would be safe and not require input from any government agency.
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if there were a way to takew the flue exhaust gasses of woodstove thru the old flue of a gas hot water tank with no burner.........
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- If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,

if there were a way to takew the flue exhaust gasses of woodstove thru the old flue of a gas hot water tank with no burner.........
**************************************************************** Creosote would be a problem.
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"willshak" wrote in message

I've read a book on steam boilers and know just enough about the subject to want to avoid creation of any steam. I've read about steam boilers exploding and being launched like a rocket up out of the house and landing on a neighbor's house, etc.
Also I would think that avoiding steam would depend on a pump circulating the water. I live in a rural area and we have frequent power outages. Sometime they last for 2 days.
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T&P valve anywhere in hot water circuit should open if steam etc is created...........
ideally old tank would have its own T&P valve........
did you know the old side arm how water tanks common in the 60s used a copper tube coil in a gas burner for water heating. noi circuliating pump, must of been from natural convention..........
long time ago i was a little kid
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googled side arm hot water tank and look what turned up
http://cgi.ebay.com/DIY-Side-Arm-Water-Heater-plans-for-wood-burner-boiler_W0QQitemZ130209878118QQihZ003QQcategoryZ42234QQcmdZViewItem
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