type of copper to use to repipe house

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MUADIB wrote:

lab
That's it, then. The dog snuck chocolate, the dog got cancer, therefore chocolate causes cancer. You heard it here first, folks.
%mod%
read further in this thread about chocolate poisoning dogs
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effi wrote:

therefore
Yes, it's already well known that chocolate poisons dogs, but this dog died from cancer, therefore chocolate also causes cancer.
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It's not lab rats that cause cancer, it's research technicians.
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effi wrote:

from
you are

In this case, by quoting more, one truly does provide a more complete quote. It is difficult to see how it could be otherwise. Your quote, verbatim though it was, was far from complete. Mine was both verbatim and more complete.

to the

and a

garden type

water
The point made was that the dog got cancer DESPITE being watered from copper pipes exclusively. The author (Bry84) had earlier made the point that a garden hose had a very good chance of leaching toxins into the water.

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and a

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the dog,

The quote in fact mentions "[m]any things in our environment can increase the risk of cancer." The dog got cancer despite the copper water supply, despite not being watered from a plastic hose, therefore from one or several of the "many things."
One need go no farther than the first of that author's quotes in that gardenweb thread to see if he thinks copper caused his dog's cancer:
"I drink hundereds of gallons of water from these pipes every year, cook with it and wash in it. I'm not comfortable using anything except copper as it's totally safe and doesn't affect the water." -Bry84.

cancer
The paucity of what I have provided is insufficient for you to make so bold a statement about what I may or may not have read. However, your inability to divine Bry84's intent from his posts to the gardenweb thread certainly calls into question your ability to assimilate what _you_ have read.

investigation
relevant
is
Yes, plastic in the context of that quote is PVC or CPVC. So no, your translation is incorrect: unknown hazards are far different from hazards proven not to exist.
My position on PVC is that it is most likely to be inert, and that trace amounts that leach into the water are easy to rinse away. My position is also that since it is relatively new, we are still serving as guinea pigs for long-term product testing. The jury is still out.
Conversely, copper is a nutrient, part of a healthy diet when not taken to excess. Copper from pipes is in most cases well below the recommended daily requirement for this nutrient. The symptoms of copper toxicity are well-known and reversible if the source of the excess is eliminated. So copper pipes may be "the Devil you know."

the
with
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comprehension
Your words: "copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans." I don't believe anybody could construe that as a directive NOT to google "copper pipe schizophrenia." I was trying to research your claim that copper pipe causes schizophrenia in humans. I made no comparison between schizophrenia and cancer; that is your miscomprehending what I did.
But since you want to drag it out of me, I had also googled "copper pipe cancer" and found the overwhelming majority of the first pages of hits to be references to carcinogens in PVC pipes with copper as the safer alternative, as well as some use of copper compounds in prevention and treatment of cancer. I didn't think that was the result you wanted to hear, so I held it back till I could get more specific links from you.

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don't
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rinse
cancer
further,
haven't
Show me where I said I have copper pipe.
Also, please go ahead and post those links which say that copper pipes cause cancer (or schizophrenia for that matter). I've read lots of stuff, but this thread contains only the gardenweb reference, and it is far from authoritative for or against. It is your claim that copper pipe causes cancer (and schizophrenia), so you should have those references handy to back up the claims; it should not be up to me to research it to make your case for you. My research reveals the opposite of your claims. For instance the following seem to be from respectable sources, but they mention cancer only in association with contaminants other than copper and do not link copper to cancer despite every opportunity to do so:
http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309069394?OpenDocument http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/c819-8w.html http://wilkes.edu/~eqc/standards.htm http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/FactSheet/Pesticide/fs7a.drnkwtr.cfm http://www.e-b-i.net/ebi/contaminants/copper.html
In fact, the last references state "Iron, copper, and zinc are common heavy metals found in drinking water, but they are not considered carcinogens" and "Copper is not known to cause cancer." Now, despite the alleged "respectability" of those sources, I cannot say for sure if they have been vetted by the process of peer review. Any crackpot can throw up a website and make it look "respectable." Thus one may have more confidence in studies published in the peer-reviewed medical literature available at PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
There I find that in the vast majority of articles that deal with elevated copper levels and cancer, elevated copper is implicated as a result of cancer, not the cause. (One should not confuse copper ingestion with arsenic ingestion or occupational exposure to copper compounds.) Copper chelation (which induces copper defficiency) has thus been investigated as a means to slow the progression of cancer. By the same token, reducing bloodflow to a tumor will also slow the tumor's growth, but it would be a stretch to claim that blood causes cancer.
So please provide those links to credible, preferrably peer-reviewed sources to back up your claims. I've provided a few to back up my position. As to the issue of toxins leaching from "plastic" pipe, I leave you with:
http://www.builderswebsource.com/techbriefs/cpvccopper.htm
"Much has been written about the potential health effects of residual vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM which is found in trace amounts in plastics containing Polyvinyl Chloride, including CPVC and PVC pipe. Proponents and detractors alike continue to debate the long-term health impact due to extended exposure to RVCM.
"VCM is made by heating ethylene dichlroride (EDC) to 700 degrees F in the presence of oxygen. VCM is used to produce PVC resins which are used to make pipe and other materials using a process known as polymerization. During this process, most, but not all of the VCM is consumed. Trace amounts remain trapped in the PVC resin where it either outgasses into the atmosphere, or migrates into food or drink stored in containers or pipes made of PVC. This remaining chemical is residual vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM.
"... However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer."
The critical thing here is although it clearly says that RVCM leaches into the water, it falls far short of stating that the levels approach even a small fraction of carcinogenic.
I'll flush my pipes before I drink from them anyway.
%mod%
P.S. If copper from pipes causes cancer, then megadoses should cause a clear increase in cancer rate, right? I'll leave it to you to decide if the following "failure to prove the positive" equates to "proving the nagative."
Drug Nutr Interact. 1988;5(4):395-401. Influence of copper and zinc on urethan-induced adenoma development in mice. Blakley BR. Department of Veterinary Physiological Sciences, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.
Female Swiss mice were exposed to zinc chloride (0 to 500 ug/mL) or copper sulfate (0 to 200 ug/mL) in their drinking water for 15 weeks. After 3 weeks of the exposure period, the mice were administered urethan (1.5 mg/g) intraperitoneally. Urethan-induced pulmonary adenoma formation was evaluated 12 weeks later. Zinc exposure increased the number of adenomas produced but reduced the mean tumor diameter in the intermediate treatment groups, 50 and 200 ug/mL. Exposure to copper had no effect on tumor size or on tumor number. Weight gains in the mice were not affected by copper or zinc treatment, although a dose-dependent reduction in water consumption was observed with copper. Water consumption in mice exposed to zinc was elevated in one treatment group (50 ug/mL). Urethan-induced sleeping times, which reflect the rate of urethan excretion, were prolonged by zinc exposure but were unaffected by copper exposure. This finding suggests that zinc exposure impairs the elimination of urethan and enhances its carcinogenic activity, which is manifested by increased tumor formation.
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as the author, and copper cancer here: http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en
it could only be expected someone would try to champion copper pipe, it is an industry going down the proverbial drain
and remember " If your house has copper pipes don't wait for cancer or schizophrenia to claim a family member. Change all the copper pipe to PVC plastic immediately." http://curezone.com/clark/home.asp
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in fact, limiting your search to "all of the words" copper and "author" snipped-for-privacy@ev1.net, you will get even more information on the health risks of copper plumbing http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en
go ahead and try to champion copper pipe, someone else will if you don't, and by doing so you will save another human from making the same mistake you are
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effi wrote:

and
No, I did not miss that particular information that you posted recently. But I also considered the possibility that I had missed other information not posted by you, or that you had something new to add. Thus I gave you the chance to post it in _this_ discussion so that it may be addressed here and now. Since you choose to stand only on the information you posted earlier, I must assume that's all there is, and I address it below.

it is

sc-hizophrenia to

That webpage is to promote sales of a book self-published by "Dr." Hulda Regehr Clark. From http://www.newcenturypress.com "New Century Press was established in 1997. Dr. Hulda Clark purchased this company to publish her books."
Researchers who follow acepted scientific method have little problem getting their works published in peer-reviewed journals or respected "traditional" book form -- indeed they are often invited to contribute chapters to new volumes -- and seldom resort to self-publication. Hulda Clark however has been discredited in several ways not the least of which are her arrest for practicing medicine without a license and a judgment by the FTC for false claims that her "Syncrometer" and "Zapper" can detect and cure cancer: http://www.casewatch.org/ftc/enforcements/amrein/consent.shtml
Now, let's address the links you posted in earlier threads:

The above have no mention of copper relating to cancer. However in the above you will find that "Copper is an essential trace element for humans. It is estimated that adult requirements are about 2-3 mg per person per day." and " It has been estimated that drinking water contributes approximately 11% of an adult's total daily intake of copper, with the rest coming from food."

The above also have no mention of copper relating to cancer. Lead leached from solder is mentioned as a risk associated with copper pipes, but it is also noted that lead solder has been banned and steps can be taken (e.g. flushing) to minimize the risk where pipes were installed before the ban.

"This regulation is known as the Lead and Copper Rule (also referred to as the LCR or 1991 Rule). The rule aimed to minimize lead and copper in drinking water, primarily by reducing water corrosivity."
"Background on the Lead and Copper Rule // The LCR has four main functions: (1) require water suppliers to optimize their treatment system to control corrosion in customers' plumbing; (2) determine tap water levels of lead and copper for customers who have lead service lines or lead-based solder in their plumbing system; (3) rule out the source water as a source of significant lead levels; and, (4) if action levels are exceeded, require the suppliers to educate their customers about lead and suggest actions they can take to reduce their exposure to lead through public notices and public education programs."

controlling lead, the more "deadly" of the two. Health effects of lead exposure are noted. The only thing I could find about health effects of copper exposure were in the training materials slide show: "Stomach and intestinal distress / Complications of Wilson's Disease / Chronic exposure can cause liver disease in genetically predisposed individuals". There is no mention of copper relating to cancer.

Dead link.
So to summarize, you claim copper pipes cause cancer. I post links from credible sources that refute your claim. You refer to a layperson discussion board that cannot be construed by any reasonable person as an endorsement of your claim; in fact it speaks against it. You refer to links you posted earlier, none of which mention a link between copper pipes and cancer, with the one exception of a discredited source.
Have you any to add?
%mod%
P.S. I was curious about Hulda Clark's fraudulent claim that her "Syncrometer" can detect, among other things, cancer, lead poisoning and AIDS in the human body. I obtained a schematic of that device and immediately recognized it as a simple LCR oscillator circuit identical to the type I built with my son and his Radioshack "150-in-1" electronic kit about 30 years ago. There were variations on that basic circuit to make different sounds, like a cat's meow, as well as one in which the human body was inserted in the signal path. The latter could be used as a crude "lie detector" because galvanic skin resistance bears some correlation to the sweating associated with lying. While researching H. Clark's "qualifications" I was reminded how this circuit was titled "the electro-sonic human," for Clark herself is on record crediting the Radioshack kit as the basis for the Syncrometer, and in her self-published "Syncrometer(R) Science Laboratory Manual" she states that the circuit can be made by a novice with the very kit! The idea of a kid's electronic project kit being a replacement for time-tested, clinically-proven laboratory tests and scientific instrumentation should be laughable to any right thinking person.
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I suppose next you will be telling us that can lights don't leak cancer.
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Type L is thicker than M, and is therefore more desireable; it costs a little more. Type K is thicker still, but is only very rarely used, in government installations, perhaps. You should be able to buy either M (red stripe) or L (bluegreen stripe); the fittings are the same for both. Go with L; it doesn't cost much more, but is more durable over time, and, furthermore, can take more punishment during the installation process. By all means, check your local plumbing code requirements; pull a permit for your repipe job, and the inspectors will help you do the job correctly! When you sell your house, you will be able to show the buyer that the repiping job was done under permit, using lead-free joining, etc. Sand your joints inside the fittings and outside the piping, for the ultimate weld; this is very time consuming. Plumbers in haste probably won't; they know all the shortcuts.
I haven't checked the Uniform Plumbing Code (at local library) for quite a number of years, but when I did, it was permissible to use M above ground, while L was required below and at grade. Your plumbing inspector will verify what is permissible! How much better to be guided correctly at the outset than to have to redo the work later. UPC will provide some guidelines for proper sizing of your pipes.
You haven't specified whether your present piping is copper, steel, or whatever. To install copper piping while leaving ANY steel piping in place is a prescription for disaster, as the copper will destroy the iron by galvanic action. Don't forget to replace shower risers, too.
Repiping specialists, working as teams, will repipe your entire house very rapidly. There are different techniques, depending on things such as how many floors are in your house; whether to use sweat fittings or friction fittings at stop valves, etc. Proper plumbing, at toilets, is to have the pipe protrude from the wall, but some repipers bring it up straight through the floor! If you are plumbing the house yourself, without experience, then you will have to have a powerful intuition for the ways that disaster might strike. For example, those feeder lines that extend from stop valves to toilets and faucets can fail. What will stop the water from flowing in the event of failure? Nothing! This has happened many times; I just wait to hear through the grapevine of some acquaintance who came home to a flood, due to aging and neglected toilet plumbing. Nowadays, nylon-braded or steel-braded flexible risers have replaced those notorious flexible brass tubes, which required a peripheral bead inside the retainer nut, to prevent mere water pressure from pushing the tube out of the stop valve. But gaskets eventually deteriorate, so such risers should be replaced eventually. Furthermore, you might damage something with your torch, at the outset.
One problem with copper, assuming you are using a torch to sweat joints, is to design the system to be repairable in the future. Therefore, you should make it possible to drain all water out of the piping, by gravity, in case you should ever want to reheat a joint. If any water lies in the pipe, anywhere near the location of your torch point, then that water will need to boil away before the copper will rise in temperature so that solder will melt.
You should consider installing standpipes behind toilet stalls, etc., where abrupt valve actions might cause water hammer. Sprinkler valves are even worse. This technique provides air cushion...shock absorption. But standpipes gradually fill with water, and are refreshed by draining your pipes occasionally.
Lay your system out so that one hose bib will still function, even if you have to shut all water pressure off inside the house.
Consider a loop with pump, for your hot water system. The pump need not operate all the time; there are clocked switches. It is imperative to insulate all hot water lines, ESPECIALLY a loop. Nowadays, with energy costs rising, more attention is drawn toward localized, instant hot water, rather than having a big tank hot all the time.
You might need to insulate cold water pipes, too, to mitigate the threat of freeze damage. Copper conducts heat much better than steel, and is thinner, so it is more VULNERABLE to freeze damage. If your house experiences cold winters, beware. There are approved methods of dealing with this threat. Don't overlook the need to replace your main feeder line, from the munipical water meter; that pipe must be kept below grade by some prescribed distance, and never allow fresh water pipes to lie beneath waste piping. Your inspector will help.
Copper pipe is assumed to last forever, but nothing is forever. The insides of hot water lines, in particular, coat with a mineral deposit, but such obstuction is minor compared to the degeneration manifested inside galvanized steel fresh water pipes. However, copper pipe, especially M, has been known to fail due to manufacturing defect; if sand is embedded in the copper at the time of extrusion, then any such grain of sand can become the site of a pinhole leak later. This has never happened to me; I have only heard about this sad story.
My condolences that your house had pressure piping in the slab. I've seen kitchen floors opened up to repair such problems, at great difficulty and expense. Metal waste piping fails, too, but the lifespan is usually considerably greater than steel fresh water piping.

the
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The difference between type K,L,M is the thickness of the wall. I've never seen type K in a home. My old home had the cheapest imported type M that ever was made; it developed pinhole leaks inside the walls after fifteen years or so.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/16_779.html
In my new (1920s) home, I've used type L for everything that I replace. The price difference is small and there's no labor difference.
--
Like, in not getting harsh winters, y'mean? As I look out my window
upon the British landscape it's white with snow and colder'n a witch's
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Ron wrote:

Good scheme to go wall/ceiling. If you're where very cold weather occurs, you'll need to pay attention to insulation in the ceiling.
Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD (5/8") as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.
There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with, but requires special tooling.
If this house was built in the 50's/60's, there is an even chance that the existing copper was used for electrical grounding purposes (sw boxes, recepts, fixtures). When you abandon the old connections, any grounds will be lost. If you know that all the wiring was done with Romex w/ground (as an example), then it's not an issue. Just a heads up.
Jim
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Yeah, that reminds me. In closing my plumbing permit, the inspector saw to it that I had a "driven rod" supplementing my house's electrical ground. Of course, the electrical ground is also strapped to my copper cold water pipe, nearest the electrical panel. But the point is that closing a plumbing permit had ramifications on the electrical status of the house. That might not occur to a DIY who avoids the permitting process...resulting in negligence. I highly recommend the permitting process to DIYs, and to homeowners who hire contractors. The inspector becomes the advocate for the homeowner.
Conversely, proper installation of a hot water loop might require pulling an electrical permit, to run power to a new pump. The lack of electrical power discourages some homeowners.

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I've never used the flexible stuff. I don't know if it's UPC-acceptable? Therefore, this becomes a question for the homeowner, even when employing a contractor. If inappropriate, it's best for homeowner to know, and prevent.
Intuitively, I can't imagine why soft, flexible copper would be prohibited. I would expect it's much more expensive. Isn't this stuff intended for air-conditioning systems?
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NO! Type L soft flexible is the type of pipe used for underground feeds from your water main. Also used in addition to air conditioning, such uses as oil line feeds for oil furnaces, natural and propane gas feed lines, and many other uses where rigid copper is not allowed.
wrote

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use
the
I just did some plumbing with PEX for the first time. It is the way to go. The plumbing supply house that I bought it and the fittings from rented me the tool to expand the tubing and pull the fittings into it. For the difference in price from copper you could afford to buy your own tool. I think the tool is around $175. PEX is replacing copper in a lot of new construction because of the ease of installation and cost.
CR
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This is Turtle.
I have read most of the replys and am just about lost in the vast number of options. So here is another 2 cent option.
In the HVAC/R business we use Type L soft copper for freon lines for the equipment. If we want to add just a little more thickiness to the wall of the tubing. We can use a Type K Soft Copper to add just a little more wall thickiness to prevent leaks and wearing of tubing leaks. The Type K & L will still use the regular Plumbing or Refrigeration type fittings and have to not changed anything. So I would just use Type K Soft Copper.
TURTLE
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wrote:

I would use type-K soft copper. You can solder it with the newer type of solder. Be aware that some of the newer types of solder have a very small difference between the liquidus and solidus temperatures and this makes for much more difficult soldering than the old 50/50 lead solder now long since banned. There are formulations that have improved characteristics. Bridgit is one type that has a wide plastic range and makes strong joints due to the use of nickel in the mix. Some have advised sanding the inside of fittings and the outside of the pipe. This is correct. Also, be sure to ream (deburr) the inside of the pipe as well. There are many handy deburring tools out there. I would not use type-M. Be aware that not everyone uses the color code correctly. Check the printed material to verify thickness.
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So are the professional plumbers that rely on solder flux, and rather new, shiny pipe, remiss in failing to sand their joints? I haven't performed a comprehensive survey on what professional plumbers do, on this matter. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Thanks.
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I've not done a survey. I have seen many jobs where the pipes were not reamed and problems developed later on with valves and other fittings when chunks came loose.
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the
My sister in law in Jacksonville recently had to do the same thing to her house. She used plastic pipe. They did the house in a weekend, Kitchen and 2 full baths. The only trouble they ran into was in the shower wall in one of the bathrooms because it was tile and had no access panel behind the wall. They did the new tile a different weekend.
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