Time delay relay suggestions?

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On 4/18/14 7:41 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut some.
Would you mind using a pneumatic timer? We use 480v stuff at work sometimes so have to use a 480 contactor then attach some sort of timer to it. We usually get stuff from Crescent.
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On Fri, 18 Apr 2014 10:04:26 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

But using a socket ensures you will never screw up the connections if you need to service it or replace it. Good investment, IMHO.
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On Friday, April 18, 2014 12:34:21 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I'm not opposed to using a socket and agree it has advantages. It's just that I'm not familiar with the socket, where you'd get it, how it can be easily mounted inside a typical weatherproof electrical box, etc. I just thought if there was some relay module type thing, with wires or screw terminals, it would be easier to deal with.
I looked on Ebay a bit. And there are relays, some even come with a socket, so that would solve the socket problem. But so far, I haven't found one that's 240V coil, 240V contacts, rated for 1hp, etc. One problem there is that have thousands of them and they aren't organized so it's hard to wade through them all. There are a lot of cheap ones from China that even come with a socket, but they are only rated for 5A.
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trader_4 wrote:

Does this help
http://www.poolplaza.com/2-speed-timer-wiring.shtml
--
PV

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On Saturday, April 19, 2014 1:47:08 AM UTC-4, PV wrote:

I guess you could use two timers, like they show. One to start and stop the pump. The other to switch it between high and low speed. But it's a kludge. You then have two timers to fiddle with. And those timers with the cog things can only be set approximately, so you'd need to have the pump start on high and run probably 20 or 30 mins, before the second timer switched it to low speed. Plus the second timer is $125. So far, looks like I can do a two relay approach for ~$20 and have the switch-over occur at 1 min. That is if I need to do it. First plan is to try it and see if it will just start up ok on low.
I'm kind of surprised that there aren't simple pool pump oriented solutions available for what must be a common problem. They do have pool pump motors that have timers built in to them, but IMO that's a far from ideal solution. Not crazy about a pump that costs 2X with electronics that can fail built into it. Not to mention that bending over, getting to a pump, to fiddle with the digital timer doesn't sound very appealing.
I'm curious to see how much electricity this will save. I'm hoping it cuts it at least in half. It will also be better suited to solar, because with solar at high speed, it wants to run more hours to heat the pool than is required for filtering. Running at half speed will closely match heating time with time needed for filtering, further reducing electricity usage.
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On 4/18/2014 7:41 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Since I've done a lot of control system and HVAC work, I keep things as simple and inexpensive as I can. If your control system has two different contactors for high/low speed, a simple timer and relay should do the job and if you understand simple relay logic control, you should have no problem. A delay on make timer module and a small enclosed fan relay should do the trick. You can pick up the parts at a local HVAC supply house and it will be less than $25.00 for the parts if you are a walk in civilian even though the supply houses tend to charge civilians a higher price. I've used ICM Controls products for many years with no problems and all HVAC supply houses stock them. Look for an ICM 102 time delay relay module and a small DPST enclosed fan relay of the correct control voltage that has Faston connectors and a mounting tab. With those two parts, some wire and crimp on Faston connectors it should be an under 30 minute job. If I knew exactly what control system you have along with a wiring diagram, I could type out what and where the connections should be made. ^_^
http://www.icmcontrols.com/DelayonMake-Timer-with-0310-minute-adjustable-delay-universal-18240-VAC-Prodview.html
http://preview.tinyurl.com/lx8xptf
http://www.johnstonesupply.com/storefront/product-view.ep?pID=L37-098
http://preview.tinyurl.com/mdeyxe2
TDD
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On Saturday, April 19, 2014 8:30:09 PM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:

It's only set-up for the existing single speed pump, that's the problem.
A delay on make timer module and a small enclosed fan

That's basically the most cost effective solution I've found, except a small fan relay isn't going to work. I'll need one that can handle the 1 HP motor. The 1HP motor is on a mechanical timer switch, no contactor. But it's the same idea. I could use one big time delay relay, but they appear hard to find, at least from the easy to order/cheap channels, eg Ebay. However I have found a time delay relay that's good for 5A and a power relay, which together are ~$20.
I've used ICM Controls products for many years with no

Yes, one of those followed by a power relay should do what I want. Thanks. It looks like a better form factor too than some of the other relay options. I see them on Ebay too, cheap.

Except that relay has a 24V coil. I have no low voltage, everything needs to be 240V. But that's OK, the ICM and similar time delay relays are also available for 240V.

Thanks for the help.
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On 4/20/2014 7:24 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Well, I was having to guess. I thought you already had a two speed setup but one of the things you may have to look out for is if you must change the motor wiring connections to change speeds, you may need more than two poles in a contactor because the connections often swap around from winding to winding to get different speeds. There are higher current inexpensive open frame relays that may work and if you must, you can use more than one relay to switch motor windings. The relays would need to be the type which will switch normally open and normally closed which means the relay will toggle a center connection from one connection to the other. ^_^
TDD
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On Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:49:36 AM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:

le-delay-universal-18240-VAC-Prodview.html

8


One wire is common, then one wire for hi, another for low. So, all I should need is a SPDT relay. That is if I even need it. I'm going to try it and see if the pump will start and run on low, without having to start it on high first.
If I have to do the time delay thing, I think the best solution is your ICM time delay module and this power relay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNECRAFT-92S11A22D-120A-Relay-Power-8-Pin-DPDT-30 A-120VAC/321328900587?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D22 2003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22466%26meid%3D6339624713645650636%2 6pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9735%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D280847364363&rt=nc
I have the pump apart and the old motor out. Just ordered seals for the pump. It wasn't leaking, but it is 8 years old and given the extra work if it leaks, figure it's worth $10 to put in new seals.
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On 4/20/2014 10:13 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Well, I was guessing again. You can double up the contacts for more current capacity. One thing I noticed about online ordering is that the shipping charges can be almost as much as the cost of the part. The ICM time delay relay is only 2" square and weighs .1 pound but the shipping and handling can eat you alive. That's why I suggested a local supply house, since they order the things by the crate, they don't have huge shipping charges. I order a lot of stuff from Amazon and am a Prime customer getting free 2 day shipping on most items but I still have to watch out for shipping charges for things that don't qualify for Prime. The ICM timer is listed on Amazon but the shipping charges were more than half the cost of the timer. If there is a Johnstone Supply in your area, you may see if you can get the parts there. ^_^
TDD
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On Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:08:11 PM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:

T-30A-120VAC/321328900587?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid% 3D222003%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D22466%26meid%3D63396247136456506 36%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D9735%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D280847364363&rtnc





The ICM is on Ebay for about $9 including shipping. The power relay was about $15, I think. Seems like a good solution to me.
On the other hand, I went over to the local pool store that built the pool. I needed an O-ring that goes on the 1 1/2" drain plug for the Pentair DE filter. They wanted $17 for it. LOL. I guess there are some people dumb enough to pay it, but not me. After I left, I was wondering if they had the price entered for like a 10 pack or something by mistake. Curiously, there was only one person selling it on Ebay and they also wanted $17. It's just a common O-ring that's used for all kinds of stuff. I found an online supplier selling them for $.32 but you have to buy 25 minimum.
I found it an online pool store for $1. It did cost $9 to ship, but I also got the pump seal, some other O-rings, etc. Wound up costing $23 for everything, but I got 8 parts.
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On 4/20/2014 1:45 PM, trader_4 wrote:

You chose wisely. I go to a supplier called Motion Industries for bearings and O-rings because I can often get O-rings made of a different and more durable material. There are locations for the supplier around the country and I've gone to several when I was traveling around servicing different equipment. I really like online shopping but I'm always careful of shipping charges and will call or Email a supplier if I see an $8 shipping charge for a $4 item to see if I can purchase more small items and have all of them included in the same shipment for the same shipping charge. It's been a long time since I bought anything off Ebay and back then there was some controversy about a few people charging, as an example, $100 shipping for a $75 item. Perhaps I'm a skeptic but I always see a low price as too good to be true. ^_^
http://www.motionindustries.com/
TDD
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Just an update on the dual speed pool pump conversion. I have it done and did some preliminary testing. If the solar system is unprimed and the pump starts on 1/2 speed it won't get the water flowing. But once it's been run and has water in it, it appears it will re-start on 1/2 speed. It starts off with real low water flow and takes about 5 mins to reach normal 1/2 speed flow. So, I think I'm OK and won't have to use a time delay circuit to always start it off at full speed. I'll know for sure when it get to the point that it makes sense to start heating the pool.
Thanks for all the help. If needed, I know the solution is the ICM time delay relay and a power relay and have room to mount them. I'm looking forward to saving a lot on electricity. The new dual speed motor will probably be about paid off by the end of this season.
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On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 11:07:08 AM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

lets hope given low initial flow you arent damaging the pumps motor....
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On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 12:02:20 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:

Well, it can't possibly damage the pump motor. Even them pump can't be damaged. It has some water flow right from the beginning. These pumps are self-priming, meaning they can start up without water. The seal is ceramic, so even with a little water flow for the first few minutes, nothing is going to happen. Same pump accidently was run for hours with no water at all and it worked fine after. When I did the tear down, the ceramic seal was still A-OK. to the pump.
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On 5/6/2014 10:07 AM, trader_4 wrote:

I spent years doing field modifications to all sorts of equipment and used ICM time delay relays because of the simplicity and reliability for assembling control system modifications. I used a lot of them working on HVAC systems to increase the life of compressors by preventing short cycling. If you have a Johnstone Supply anywhere near you, you can obtain ICM time delay relays, contactors and control relays there. WW Grainger should have all of that stuff to. ^_^
TDD
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:13:06 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

You might want to think about bearings too. They are usually a 6203 and you can get them online for a few bucks each. It is usually more like $10 at the counter store, still a deal if you are not buying more than a couple.
I usually get them 20-30 at a time since I do a lot of pump and aerator work. It is the most common size it seems. You will need a long jaw bearing puller and something to drive the new one on. A 5/8" washer and a piece of pipe will work for a driver. Just be careful not to break the start switch when you are taking it apart. I take that off first and put it in a safe place. That "U" shaped metal doodad (if you have one) is the adjustment, you don't crank it down as tight as you can get it ;-)
You want the switch to open when the centrifugal plate is collapsed and the switch to get a good "wipe" when it returns to normal (.030-.050" of over travel after contact)
Also don't lose the "slinger", the rubber washer between the pump housing and the motor face. That is what keeps any water that does get past the seal from getting to the bearing.
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On Sunday, April 20, 2014 12:48:44 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Bearings? I'm replacing the motor with a brand new 2 speed motor and there are no bearings in the pump.
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:08:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas

That really does not work that well. Contacts burn when they open and if these paired contacts do not open at exactly the same time (within a millisecond or less) the first one to open will burn. As it erodes away the gap widens and the problem gets worse. There are arc suppression schemes but it has to be sized to the load.
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On 4/20/2014 12:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I've never had a problem with it because of what I always do without a second thought or perhaps a little thinking. I always use clamping diodes for DC loads on relays but I'm not switching 100 amps DC. I also use disk capacitors and MOV's across contacts. As I wrote, I'm not switching huge loads in a control circuit and what I do is not just for extending the life of the relay but to help eliminate or minimize RF noise and voltage spikes which can be hard on solid state circuitry. The OP is using a small relay in a control circuit so he shouldn't have a problem with eroding contacts. ^_^
TDD
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