Splicing #14 wire, hot to neutral ratios....

[Doug Miller]

No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. Examples include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) and electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).

Well, no, not *always* -- one of them could be connected to nothing, I suppose.

But if they're both connected, then yes, absolutely.

You can't get 240V unless they're on opposite legs of the service. And if they're on the same leg, then the current in the neutral could be as much as twice what it's rated for -- which is a potential fire hazard.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 11/7/2009 10:47 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

Not at all true. The houses I work on are all in a major metropolitan area (San Francisco Bay area), and I'd say there's a pretty even mix of

15 and 20 amp circuits. Most electricians, it turns out, are not complete idiots, and can judiciously allocate circuits to reduce costs and conserve materials. So many lighting circuits, even in newer construction, are 15 amps, while baseboard outlets, for example, are 20 amp circuits.

Then, of course, there are lots and lots of houses, as you can imagine, with "mystery" circuits. I found one such on a customer's house not long ago, a circuit on a 20-amp breaker that was *mostly* #12 except for a short run I discovered that was #14. After scratching my head and contemplating ripping a lot of shit out, I settled on a quick, cheap, easy and safe fix: I swapped the breaker for a 15-amp one.

[Doug Miller]

Electric water heaters have igniters?

[The Daring Dufas]

Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.

TDD

[dpb]

Existential Angst wrote: ...

I've never seen NYC Code, but that surely sounds suspicious--it would be interesting to see reference to the Code requirements that ban it...

Well, I don't think there is such a thing as a 14 vs 12 wired "house" as a general rule; there are 12 and 14 circuits generally in the same house in quite high proportions I'm sure. General lighting is typically 15A while outlets, etc., kitchens/baths are 20A.

That's as urban-mythic and urban-centric a statement as something one hear out hear about inner cities or somesuch. There's no shortage of power and amenities in new construction out here in the hinterlands although it is sometimes necessary to wait for the stage from Dodge for the mail.

[Nate Nagel]

right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.

nate

[The Daring Dufas]

Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology. R. Green may be somewhere other than The U.S. Them dang furners talk funny ya know. *snicker*

TDD

[Doug Miller]

It's *not* OK if they're on different circuits.

Exactly.

[Robert Green]

Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!

-- Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

What about air conditioner igniters? (-:

-- Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

Oops. I knew there was something wrong with that sentence when I was moving from the general to the specific. How about: Cold fusion electric water heaters have igniters to start the fusion process? Or: They need an igniter to activate a Maxwell's Demon that sorts the hotter water molecules from the cooler ones? How about - I f_cked up! Yeah, that's the ticket! But you get the general gist. Some of that 240VAC gear needs 110VAC connections . . . Just NOT *electric* water heater igniters. (-:

-- Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

Yes. I erred by missing the "junction box" part of the statement about pig-tailed neutrals although I've seen that happen in main panels when all the busbar slots are full. That was a lot easier to fix than finding three neutrals wire-nutted, pigtailed and jammed tight, not in a junction box, but stuffed into a light switch box behind a light switch.

I've run into that situation with old wiring and remotely controlled X-10 switches more times than I care to remember. The original switch was a very shallow bodied snap switch, the X-10 switch was twice as big. There was

*almost* enough room for the new switch and all the nutted together neutrals, as long as I didn't screw the switch down all the way.

When it came time to repaint the bathroom, I finally decide carve out space for a 2 gang box since I was plastering and painting anyway. This is old cloth covered wiring that doesn't tolerate too much abuse and there's nothing like wire-nutting and box-stuffing to torture that copper into breaking.

Fortunately, there's always been enough wire left intact in the box to pigtail the remains, even if it meant adding a 2 gang box to allow easy reach. But what happens when I break an old wire that can't be pigtailed in the box?

-- Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

I was reading about the English "ring" circuit the other day and how they abandoned the central fuse/breaker panel altogether and put fuses in each plug! It's remarkable, I think, that there's so much uniformity in electrical wiring. Keeping in mind that most regulatory bodies operate on the tombstone basis (enough people die, time to regulate something!) that means that it's more than likely somebody died for every rule they come up with.

I wonder how many electricians got their union card renewed by St. Peter to cause the "tied breaker" rules to come into existence for three-wire Edison circuits? Heck, how many elephants died in the AC v. DC war between Tesla and Edison? This electricity is lethal stuff.

I wonder how many people have been electrocuted since the electric age began. It's got to be impressive. Add in the people who were killed in fires or explosions caused by electrical ignition, and you've probably got a major US city's worth of deaths. No wonder why the Greeks reserved the lightning bolt for the capo di tutti capi, Zeus. Back then electricity killed people without providing much in the way of benefits. At least now we get some heat, light and TV power out of the deal and instead of Zeus, the Energizer Bunny is the new symbol of electric power.

-- Bobby G.

[Existential Angst]

Well, now we have automobiles, good for 50,000 quick deaths a year, McD's, ciggies, and ethanol good for a few hundred thousand slow deaths a year, and for those who want lobotomization whilst slowly dying, we got RealityTV, JudgeJudy, JohnEdwards Cross Country, and all the rest.

Altho, I *do* miss Whitney Houston bellowing at her in-house dealer Bobby Brown for her crack pipe....

[Mark Lloyd]

How about an electric water heater with a timer to turn it off during the day? No igniter, but it still uses both voltages.

[Gary H]

If you have gas air conditioning.

[Sam E]

This air conditioner is a hybrid system that can run on either gas or electricity. Therefore, it has both an igniter and 240V service. You'd have this if you prefer gas, but that's unreliable.

[Harry L]

Install a second service panel. Don't connect any hot wires to it, but connect one (or both if you need to) of the buses to the neutral in the main panel. Now you have a place for neutral breakers.

OK, that's not safe. Get a 3-phase panel (and breakers) and use the third "phase" for neutral.

[Existential Angst]

Ingenious!

And, if Local 3 gets a hold of this idea and lobbies the NEC.......

[Nate Nagel]

Theoretically possible; my grandparents had a gas refrigerator. Worked well and quiet, too.

nate