Repairing the roof truss

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MiamiCuse wrote:

I'm no engineer, but the seat of my pants says you did okay. There was no need to remove the nailer plates- if they got in the way, all you needed to do was trim them with a saber saw and a metal blade. Just for giggles, I'd gusset your new joints with metal or even plywood plates, screwed into place. That will help keep the joints tight when the roof system flexes in high wind. The big-box, in the deck and framing aisle, sells all sorts of pre-made brace plates that would work.
-- aem sends...
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MiamiCuse wrote:

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are *you* fixing them? BTW, they are trusses, not rafteers.
--

dadiOH
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I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters, joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.
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Next time, write it into the contract. It means a lot more then.
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MiamiCuse wrote:

Channel that fury.
Do you know any attorneys? It would be worth asking them how to handle the situation and what they'd charge to write a nasty letter to the doofus.
Have you talked to him about what he did? Does he act sorry, hang his head, and offer to fix it? What about his boss? Give them a chance to do the right thing, then have your attorney write that letter.
--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
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Attorney$ cost whether you are right or wrong. I bet he could use the system itself.
I'm betting to do anything to a truss you need a permit. Did they get a permit? No. What inspector would have signed off on that?! Call the city inspections dept. Ask if a permit is needed to cut a truss for some attic HVAC work. OK, done with inpsection dept.
WRITE, (I repeat, WRITE) the HVAC place. Send it certified with a return receipt request. Tell them you want copies of the permit and final inspection with specifics on cutting your trusses. If they say they did do it legit then you should be able to verify with permits/inspections dept records. If you found they lied about that then you write again, same terms, You want whatever it takes them to get you a PE statement signed off and stamped with a seal in 30 days. If you don't get it you will begin to resolve through the permits and inspections department. This will get their attention since an issue of this type would affect their business to get future permits (if they ever get them at all).
IF the OP paid by credit card that would be great. A second parallel attack on the hack. WRITE the credit card company IMMEDIATELY and dispute the charges. Hopefully OP has not paid those charges yet. Still may have recourse.
I think there's a lot the OP can do at this point without the courts with promising results at little or no cost except for his time. I'd say worth it. Between getting an PE to come out (field visit fee), drawing up approves doc, then contractors fee to repair, easily a grand. Pure guess and probably conservative. It could very well end up a legal issue anyway of course.
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Well I have made calls to the place and now it's a phone game with them, "the manager will call me back..." and nothing.
I am not sure what I can do now realistically. I made a mistake of not writing this into the contract, and have since out of frustration and panic did some work myself to "fix" it so I am sure they will say they did something but I did something too...a mess basically.
Thanks.
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in

IF they respond, you can bet once they see pulled plates they will say any gusset and 90% of lumber work needed is because of that. And that they could have rectified the problem without an engineer or extensive work in an hour. Maybe (big one) offer you a piss-ant couple of hundred bucks. Last one who touches anything "owns it" from then on whether it be your attic, a software program or a car motor. After viewing it (if they do), I doubt they would touch it at this point.
Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody wanna- be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see someone respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's a resolution be it a rectification or legal directive.
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Can I think say you're full of shit even if I agree with you? ;)
I think it's even a darker picture than you're painting. The OP now has modified the structure of his house (with help) without going through engineering and permitting. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if a hurricane does blow through and there is damage to the roof the insurance company would not pay out.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

He can hope for total destruction so the modification won't be found :)
--

dadiOH
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I checked my eyes in the mirror and they are not brown but I do have this nasty taste in my mouth. You're really close to being right.
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Red Green wrote: ...

...
Well, I'll step up...you're fos :)
While it would have been better the HVAC supplier got a fitting air handler or made a modification rather than the cut, aiu the description only two widely separated trusses were cut.
In all likelihood it could be left as is and never be a problem, but the modification noted below to add a header across the adjacent trusses and replacing the cut chord will work just fine.
I'm also not in the camp of the other "sky is falling" posters on some dire consequence of insurance or other issues at a future sale time, etc., ...
It's great drama, but not much more than that...
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Indeed. We should be congratulating the OP on having reduced the dead load on the building by the weight of the removed truss members.
I'm curious how you determine risk. The OP's house is in an hurricane alley. I was under the impression that no one really knew exactly where, when and how destructive a particular hurricane will be. It sounds as if you have some advance word that the OP's house is safe. As a regular I'm sure you are aware that the OP has been posting about his trials and tribulations as he progresses through the repairs and remodeling of his house. I am not sure what other modifications were made, and whether they were seat-of-the-pants or permitted. There are simply too many variables to say he doesn't have to worry. It might be just a viewpoint thing - it's his money at risk and not yours.
The risk v reward thing would indicate that the downside is substantial, while the repair would be fairly minimal - and most likely should be coming out of someone else's pocket. Even if the OP does a _perfect_ repair, the insurance company would look to weasel out of paying out. The modified truss gives them an easy out.
R
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RicodJour wrote: ...

BS...
--
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dpb wrote:

Sorry, second line got erased inadvertently...
Can you or anybody else find any evidence of such minor modification (post repair) actually being the basis for a claim rejection?
--
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It's OK - senior moments can happen to anyone. ;)

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2006/07/26/70811.htm?print=1 That's even a flimsier excuse for denying a claim, but denied it was.
This one http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wi&vol=wisctapp2 \\2005\\03-2051&invol=1 shows that an insurance company will walk away from damage resulting from a deliberate act of construction (in the linked to case, it involved cutting trusses, and of course there are some differences - the thrust still addresses your request).
It may not make sense to you, but it does happen. You do seem to be pretty casual about the OP's risk. The OP is the one who mentioned his concern about upcoming hurricanes. "However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem, as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy and worry about collection of that cost later." The OP is the one who is concerned about a hurricane damaging their house.
To the OP: Even if you're in a hurry, you should follow the process. By taking matters into your own hands and starting the repair on your own you've "bought" the situation as others have pointed out. It will probably be much harder to get satisfaction. Sending registered letters, getting quotes and informing the AC company of intended actions and dates makes future actions (small claims, lawsuit, repair) easier later.
R
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http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2006/07/26/70811.htm?print=1 That's even a flimsier excuse for denying a claim, but denied it was.
This one http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wi&vol=wisctapp2 \\2005\\03-2051&invol=1 shows that an insurance company will walk away from damage resulting from a deliberate act of construction (in the linked to case, it involved cutting trusses, and of course there are some differences - the thrust still addresses your request).
********************************************************************************************
These two cases do not answer the question. There were violations of law, poorly designed trusses from the outset (not a modification) There may be other factors "Alfa Insurance officials would not comment, citing client confidentiality"
In the second case, it is more than just roof trusses, but other workmanship and damage. Sounds like a contractual issue.
"During the installation process, Sigmund cut three roof trusses. Paulan alleges that the cutting of the roof trusses rendered the home structurally unsafe, prevented the completion of shingling the roof, left the home not properly protected from the weather, and as a result, the home could not be occupied for a significant period. Paulan claims that Sigmund breached the terms of the written proposal by failing to perform work in a good and workmanlike manner."
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OK, just an update on the situation.
I spoke to the tech and he said I will need to talk to the manager who is "travelling" this week...I think it will be a back and forth playing dumb - I may need to write them a letter.
However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem, as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy and worry about collection of that cost later.
Here are my issues.
(1) Since two truss members were cut, I have a total of 4 joints to deal with, and a total of 8 joint gussets. In my repair, I had to remove the existing piece of wood sticking out of it and I did it by prying, hammering, pulling - and I was able to pull out three pieces completely and the other five I bent, twisted, peeled back to let loose of the lumber and they are still there. Given the circumstances I think I have to pull them all out right? Hammering them back in place will do no good.
(2) I will need to talk to the structures people in my company to get some idea on the proper repair. Basically here is my truss originally:
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/?action=view&current=originaltruss.jpg
It spans 22 feet between two 8" exterior concrete block walls. The rafters are 2x6 and extended 4 feet beyond the wall for the overhang soffit ceiling. On each side of the crown are two 2x3 lumber at 45 degrees. The trusses are like that for the entire 70 feet of the house on this wing, and they are spaced 24" apart. These two that are cut are along are located 22' and 24' from one end, about 1/3 of the way.
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jpg
Thanks.
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote: ...

Put a 2x6 on the underside of the rafters spanning the cut truss and insert the missing leg from the current joint and fasten to the new piece.
This will transfer some load to the adjacent but give a support for the cut truss to minimize any roof sag in the space between the two whole trusses.
Assuming you can get the new member by the hanger, put the sister as high up towards the roof peak as can and clear the upper corner of the duct.
Use plywood gussets w/ optional glue/adhesive in place of the destroyed metal plates.
--
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dpb wrote:

... Also, a crossover between the two sides to those scabs and a sizable plywood gusset there would aid rigidity up there at the crown...
--
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