Pressure tank installation

A recent house fire on an acreage has forced the need to hook a pressure tank directly to the submersible pump to supply outside water. I have purchased a new bladderless tank and have a 220 source to power the pump. I am looking for some guidance or some source of information (diagrams, instructions, etc.), and an idea where to obtain this info. Have checked into having a plumber do this and the estimates I received were pretty high. If all else fails- I guess I'll go that route. Thanks
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On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:02:20 GMT, mchoghead wrote:

directly to the submersible pump to supply outsidewater. I have purchased a new bladderless tank and have a 220 sourceto power the pump. I am looking for some guidance or some source ofinformation (diagrams, instructions, etc.), and an idea where toobtain this info. Have checked into having a plumber do this and theestimates I received were pretty high. If all else fails- I guessI'll go that route.
Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure tank on one side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you with water, while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. I have something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The pressure tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about 80 ft from the house, along with the whole house filter.
My setup is with the pump and line to the house across the top of the T and the pressure tank comes off the bottom of the T - a little ASCII art may help (best viewed with a fixed size font).
pump--------------------house (spigot in your case) | | pressure tank
Later, Mike (substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly) ----------------------------------- snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net
Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.
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You can save a bundle by doing the installation yourself. All you need is to uncover enough of the line coming from the well to insert a T.
In addition to what Michael said:
If the tank is where it is subject to freezing, you will need to add a shut-off valve (use 1/4 turn ball valve) and a method of draining the tank. .
You really don't need another tank (assuming you already have one) unless you are after more storeage. Just a frost-free standpipe at the well or other convenient spot along the line to the house.
If you do install a tank you will need to pre-charge it with air before it fills with water. Proper pressure is 2psi below the cut-in pressure of the pressure switch.
Harry K
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(Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure tank on one side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you with water, while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. I have something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The pressure tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about 80 ft from the house, along with the whole house filter.)
When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap off the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the house. Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the summer months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to dig up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end to the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and the tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way. Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking up the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any and all help. Neal
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mchoghead wrote:

There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify what you need to do:
Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it? Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so, anything you do will need to be drained.
To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the standpipe.
I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already have power to the pump.
The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said prior. If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to install a tank at all.
Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and tank. If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is even more strange.
A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:
Tank contains a certain amount of air. Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble. Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60 The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to point of use. *It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static) will be identical at all points in the system even at very remote locations.*
There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them.
Harry K
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mchoghead wrote:

tank
with
I
80
off
house.
summer
dig
to
the
up
and
There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify what you need to do:
Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it? Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so, anything you do will need to be drained.
To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the standpipe.
I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already have power to the pump.
The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said prior. If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to install a tank at all.
Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and tank. If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is even more strange.
A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank:
Tank contains a certain amount of air. Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble. Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60 The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to point of use. *It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static) will be identical at all points in the system even at very remote locations.*
There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them.
Harry K[/quote:1a6fb8c8a6]
To help clarify a bit.--- The water lines from the pump ran underground and into the house to the pressure tank. Also the wiring to the pump comes off the utility pole into the house breaker box and back out to the pump(also underground). The pressure tank in the house is a loss-very hot fire-hence the need for a new tank. The wiring will need to be connected from the utility pole to the pump as there is no electricity running the the house anymore and the house will be buried soon. This is a temporary setup to supply water for outside use. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controll to make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnected for winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook this up. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiar with the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer months and draining for winter months. Thanks for all the help and would appreciate anymore. Thanks Neal
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mchoghead wrote:

Thkanks, that clears things up. I can now see the problems.
Wiring. If the pole is near the house, the easiest installation would probably be to connect to the underground lines near it. Dig up the old pipe/wire line and install breaker box. May need an electrician for that. You will need to connect the wiring at the well to the pressure switch on the tank also. Simple wiring diagram
Pole---breaker---well---pressure switch---pump. Of course if you install a pole and breaker at the well you wouldn't have to dig up the line at the house.
Standpipe = just the technical term for a faucet on a pipe sticking up out of the ground. Best for outdoor use are the frost-free ones. When you turn them off, they automatically drain.
I now see the plumber's point of coming straight out of the well by eliminating (or at least bypassing) the pitless adapter. That is a diagonal slip connection that slides together and connects the well pipe with the pipe leading to the house.
Bladderless tank does make some sense there. Should help get air into the tank when it is draining.
Sounds like the tank is just going to be setting in the open. In that case all you need on it is a hose bib, no standpipe needed.
This does not sound like a DIY job unless you are fairly experienced with both wiring and plumbing.
Harry K
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On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:01:53 GMT, mchoghead wrote:

a bladderless tank with a volume controllto make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnectedfor winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook thisup. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiarwith the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer monthsand draining for winter months.
You'll probably be required by your electric company to install a "temporary service" which is simply a post (4X4 was used when they built my house) with an electrical box mounted on it which holds some breakers and a spot for the electric company to install a meter. You can simply hook the wiring from the pump to one or two breakers depending on whether it is 120V or 240V. Need to make sure the breakers are rated high enough for the pump.
My system was set up very similar to what you want to do while my house was constructed. There was a wire which came from the temporary service to the pressure switch. My well (6" drilled) has the casing coming all the way to the surface, so the water pipe turned to one side after exiting the casing cover to go to the pressure tank which was sitting on a couple of cement blocks. There was a T by the pressure tank - one leg from the well, one to the pressure tank and the other had a short pipe with a hose bib on it. This was set up by the fella that drilled the well, I later added the wellhouse/storage building, the changes in plumbing required to accomodate the building and for mounting a whole house filter in the wellhouse and the pipe to the house.
Slightly Off-Topic I'm curious, since I don't have any personal experience with bladderless tanks, why would a bladderless tank be easier to drain? Turn off the pump, open a valve and the tank drains - right?
Any small amount of water that may be left in the tank would have plenty of room to expand if it froze so no damage - pipes should drain to similar condition if lowest point is opened. I'm not from a cold climate (NW GA), mebby I'm missing something?
Later, Mike (substitute strickland in the obvious location to reply directly) ----------------------------------- snipped-for-privacy@bellsouth.net
Please send all email as text - HTML is too hard to decipher as text.
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Michael Strickland wrote:

needed a bladderless tank with a volume controllto make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnectedfor winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook thisup. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiarwith the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer monthsand draining for winter months.

I really don't see the bladderless tank either except that one will drain faster as air will enter through the air control valve. A bladder tank has to have the air bubble up through the water trying to exit. I suppose his plumber has his reason but...
Harry K
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A tank with a bladder has what it sys inside, a rubbery bladder that separates air and water.
The bladder maintains a back pressure on the water, helping it to flo out and up when the water drain is opened.
A bladder less tank is a simple reservoir, giving the system expansion room as the temperature of the water changes. Yes, if the tank begins to get full, the air above will dissolve in the water.
So, what does the application need, expansion room for fluctuating water levels, or a pressure maintainer to give positive flow?
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Robert Gammon wrote:

You have a misconception of how the tanks work. They both work the same way. A bubble of air is compressed by water pumped. The compressed air bubble is what forces the water through the system when the pump is off. The only difference between the two types is:
Bladder - has a membrade (actually more of a balloon) separating the air and water. Bladderless - only has an air bubble. Over time, the air is absorbed into the water and disappears resulting in what is known as a waterlogged tank. Thus the need for a "snifter valve" or float type vavle to let more air into the tank.
Harry K
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mchoghead wrote: > Harry Kwrote: > mchoghead wrote: > (Put a T onto the pipe coming from the pump and put the pressure > tank > on one > side of the T and your spigot on the other. This will provide you > with > water, > while not forcing the pump to run every time you turn on the spigot. > I > have > something similar to this as a permanent setup for my house. The > pressure > tank is in the wellhouse, which is also a small storage shed about > 80 > ft from > the house, along with the whole house filter.) > > When originally talking to a plumber about doing the work of > installing the pressure tank he had talked about pulling the cap > off > the top of the sub.pump and adding a section thereby bypassing? the > area where the lines run out of shaft underground and into the > house. > Is this a better option? I only plan on using this setup in the > summer > months. Sorry really dont know much about this. Do you mean to > dig > up the line running from the pump to the house,bring the house end > to > the surface and then add a tee connecting the line the spigot and > the > tank. Then I would supply current to the pump? I plan on just > running the wires from the pump to a 220v plugin source by the way. > Also the plumber told me to purchase a bladderless tank with a bung > hole for a vollume control valve(not sure what the purpose of this > is). Then would I charge the tank with air before or after hooking > up > the water/pump and filling the tank with watter? Thanks for any > and > all help. Neal > > There are things going on with your system that seem odd. You > apparently have a submersible pump running to the house. To clarify > what you need to do: > > Do you currently have a pressure tank? If so, where is it? > Will there be a problem of freezing in the winter time? If so, > anything you do will need to be drained. > > To answer your question abouit the tee: It goes where you want the > standpipe. > > I don't understand why you would need to run wires. You must already > have power to the pump. > > The advice to purchase a bladderless tank seems odd. Why add > maintenance problems into the system? I will repeat what I said > prior. > If you have a pressurized system running now, there is no need to > install a tank at all. > > Your questions do make sense if the fire wiped out the wiring and > tank. > If that is the case, the advice to install a bladderless tank is > even > more strange. > > A short bit on the physics behind a water system using a tank: > > Tank contains a certain amount of air. > Pump pumps water that compresses the air bubble. > Pump run is controlled by a pressure switch that is set to turn on at > some low setting and off at a higher one. Common are 30/50, 40/60 > The compressed air bubble pushes the water through the system to > point > of use. > *It does not matter where the tank is located - pressure (static) > will > be identical at all points in the system even at very remote > locations.* > > There are constant pressure set-ups but I am not familiar with them. > > > Harry K
To help clarify a bit.--- The water lines from the pump ran underground and into the house to the pressure tank. Also the wiring to the pump comes off the utility pole into the house breaker box and back out to the pump(also underground). The pressure tank in the house is a loss-very hot fire-hence the need for a new tank. The wiring will need to be connected from the utility pole to the pump as there is no electricity running the the house anymore and the house will be buried soon. This is a temporary setup to supply water for outside use. I was told I needed a bladderless tank with a volume controll to make it easier to drain water back in the well when disconnected for winter months. I am trying to find the easiest way to hook this up. I have already purchased a bladderless tank and am not familiar with the standpipe concept but only plan on using in summer months and draining for winter months. Thanks for all the help and would appreciate anymore. Thanks Neal [/quote:1c311aaf3f]
Thkanks, that clears things up. I can now see the problems.
Wiring. If the pole is near the house, the easiest installation would probably be to connect to the underground lines near it. Dig up the old pipe/wire line and install breaker box. May need an electrician for that. You will need to connect the wiring at the well to the pressure switch on the tank also. Simple wiring diagram
Pole---breaker---well---pressure switch---pump. Of course if you install a pole and breaker at the well you wouldn't have to dig up the line at the house.
Standpipe = just the technical term for a faucet on a pipe sticking up out of the ground. Best for outdoor use are the frost-free ones. When you turn them off, they automatically drain.
I now see the plumber's point of coming straight out of the well by eliminating (or at least bypassing) the pitless adapter. That is a diagonal slip connection that slides together and connects the well pipe with the pipe leading to the house.
Bladderless tank does make some sense there. Should help get air into the tank when it is draining.
Sounds like the tank is just going to be setting in the open. In that case all you need on it is a hose bib, no standpipe needed.
This does not sound like a DIY job unless you are fairly experienced with both wiring and plumbing.
Harry K[/quote:1c311aaf3f]
Yeah I guess im kinda leaning towards experience on this one but thanks so much for all your help. It was most appreciated. Neal
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mchoghead wrote:
<snip>

The installation of the tank and wiring are not all that technical. If you have done some, and your tank/pressure switch came with good instructions you should be able to do it.
The problem for DIY is bypassing the pitless adaptor. That can be avoided by simply digging out the pipe/wiring next to the well head and connecting there. I would tend to go that route even if I was hiring the job out.
Harry K
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