OT: Texas to EPA: "That stinks"

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Han wrote:

Oh bother. It won't happen overnight and the cost of moving the coastal Florida cities fifty miles inland would be a pittance compared to trying to significantly curtail carbon emissions.
Has anyone actually figured out how much the sea level would rise?
Best I can find is this: If ALL the land ice in Antarctica melted, the oceans would rise about 61 meters. If all the Greenland ice melted, add another seven meters. All in all, about 220 feet.
Scary.
But the average temperature of Antarctica is -37C. A global temperature rise of even ten degrees means Antarctica remains frozen. In other words, no amount of temperature increase predicted, or even contemplated, will make one iota of difference in the land ice of Antarctica.
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wrote Re Re:

The point, HeyBluBlub, is that even a rise of 10 ft would make many coastal cities either uninhabitable, or in need of costly water defenses - see Holland.
--
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Han
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Han wrote:

If the land ice if Antarctica doesn't melt, all we have to do is worry about the land ice in Greenland. If it ALL melted, sea levels would rise 20 feet. If half melted, we'd be at your ten foot mark.
As for the Dutch being jeopardized, they could move to Greenland. And grow grapes.
Since 1990, the sea level has risen 0.13mm (how they can measure this small an increase is beyond me). At that rate, it would take 192 years for the sea level to rise one inch!
To prevent that looming "catastrophe," there are those who would have us lives lives that are painful, brutish, and short.
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wrote Re Re: OT: Texas to EPA: "That stinks":

I think I understand now. If the world ocean levels were to rise say 10', the places like New Orleans, New York, Miami, Boston etc would be destroyed.
So what's the problem?
--
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The drinking class would have to learn to swallow ...
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Han
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Global temperatyure changes are uneven across the globe. The poles change more, and the tropics change less.
Lately, warming has been disproportionately in and near the Arctic, in part from polar areas changing more, and in part because a set of multidecadal oscillations has shifted heat northward over the past 30 or so years.
Historically, when the globe was 7-8 degrees C warmer than it is now, there was no thick polar ice. Last time the world was approx. 3 degrees warmer than it is now (~95,000-100,000 years ago), most of Greenland's ice melted, although Antarctica's ice survived.
Then again, the way global climate sensitivity is looking to me, even getting CO2 up to 600-700 PPMV would only make the world about 1.5 degrees C warmer than it is now. Some of the "positive feedbacks" reported by IPCC are looking very much overestimated.
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Don Klipstein wrote:

If all the ice in Arctic Ocean melted, the sea level wouldn't rise a millimeter.
And your conjuecture of "CO2 up to 600-700 PPM would only make the world about 1.5 degrees C warmer," I suggest may very well be cause and effect backwards. It's the warmer earth that causes increased CO2, not the reverse.
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But if Greenland's landborne ice sheet melts, sea level rises about 7 meters.

From sometime millions of years ago to a couple hundred years ago, that was the case. Back then, the amount of carbon in the global ecosystem was pretty constant. Atmospheric CO2 level was a positive feedback system, following and amplifying a global temperature change whose root cause was something else - often the Milankovitch cycles. Temperature affects ratio of CO2 in the atmosphere to that in oceans, while CO2 is a greenhouse gas.
In the past several decades, atmospheric CO2 was rising despite the fact that nature (mainly the oceans) has been removing CO2 from the atmosphere.
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Ivan wrote:

Correct. But so is global cooling.

You were okay until the last sentence. There is absolutely no proof that increased CO2 contributes to global warming. In fact, just the opposite may very well be true: Global warming causes an increase in CO2.

False as to fact. The cost of dealing with global warming is easily offset by the value of global warming (i.e., longer growing seasons and less weather-related deaths). Meanwhile the cost of attempting to offset GW is astronomical.

Because there is no unequivocal evidence that carbon emissions have anything to do with GW.

Look up the definition of the word "belief." Never mind, I'll do it for you:
Belief - Confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof; confidence; faith; trust; a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith.
In other words, GW enthusiasts hold to a premise with a religious fervor marked by trust and faith but not susceptible to proof.
Sounds about right to me.
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Got it. Do you have proof for the claims you make above? Or are we talking belief?
-- Doug
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Douglas Johnson wrote:

It was Ivan who said AGW is a belief system.
I was simply agreeing with the part:
"Yeah, there are some scientists who don't believe. There always are, always have been, and always will be--and that's good, because the whole point of science is informed skepticism. But more of them -- especially those who specialize in climate -- do."
Again, he's the one who said AGW is a belief system.
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I'd really be interested in any serious study that suggests this is true. Do you have any pointers? Thanks, Doug
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Douglas Johnson wrote:

No, I don't. I just remember than an increase of a few degrees would increase the Canadian growing seasons, allowing three crops of some grains instead of two.
There are MANY more deaths attributed to cold weather world-wide than those caused by higher temperatures. I don't know of any tabulations.
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wrote:

So are you just making that up? I"m guessing the 5000 Russians that have died from this summer's heatwave might throw even your made up numbers off a bit.
Jim
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Also, the news articles seem to indicate that this is more related to smoke and respiratory deaths from the wildfires. We had droughts long before carbon was a problem.
During 1999--2002, a total of 4,607 death certificates in the United States had hypothermia-related diagnoses listed as the underlying cause of death or nature of injury leading to the underlying cause of death (annual incidence: four per 1,000,000 population) according to the CDC. That works out to about 1100 or so deaths a year. CDC for hyPERthermia shows that during 1999--2003, a total of 3,442 deaths resulting from exposure to extreme heat were reported (annual mean: 688). So, yeah, it would seem more from too cold.
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Jim Elbrecht wrote:

Made-up numbers and "fact by consensus" are the coin of the global warming realm, it seems. But warming and cooling cycles are a fact of history. The only issue is how much mankind influences that. The alarmists say "A whole bunch" and the real scientists say "not so much".
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Didn't you ever hear the argument: "If just ONE life is saved" that what ever it is is "worth it"? The argument is that if one child's life is saved by "gun control" then the fact that you are putting in place the pre-conditions for the genocide of millions (proven by history over and over again) is supposed to not be important and is supposed to be ignored. It all goes to show it's about politics and not facts.
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Benj wrote:

Consider a similar argument: "Better that fifty guilty men go free than one innocent person unjustly suffer."
What's magic about "50"? If we must avoid punishing an innocent person at all costs, why not 100 go free? Why not 1000? Why not 10,000? In fact, why have punishment at all?
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wrote Re Re: OT: Texas to EPA: "That stinks":

Well said.
--
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Jim Elbrecht wrote:

A few years ago, as I recall, 7,000 Frenchies died during a heat wave in Paris. But who's counting French and Russians.
And no, I'm not making it up. I read it on the internet.
Specifically:
In heat waves, deaths due to cardiovascular problems increase. This is more than offset by upper respiratory problems found during cold waves. http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/1/80
"...there are from ~5-15X more deaths due to Cold, than due to Warm Events." http://sharpgary.org/Warm%20Vs%20Cold%20Deaths.html
"The average number of deaths attributed to cold is 770 yearly, substantially higher than the number attributed to heat (Kilbourne, 1997)." http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/socasp/weather1/adams.html
"Demographically speaking, cold is actually a far bigger killer than heat. In the Northern Hemisphere, the Grim Reaper makes more house calls in December, January, and February, while-this year's statistically anomalous summertime mortality excepted-he tends to take time off during July, August, and September ." http://www.slate.com/id/2088323
And so on.
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