OT Property taxes

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On 04/26/2015 04:26 PM, trader_4 wrote:

More to the point:
Taxes are just something most people (me included) like to gripe about, my comments don't have much real meaning.
However when the conversation got around to gutting the school system then I got pretty upset at what Walker is trying to do.
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On 4/26/2015 7:02 PM, philo wrote:

Is education mentioned as one of the powers delegated to government? Is it mentioned in the US Constitution, or the Wisconsin state constitution?
Why do tax payers have the government take their money by force, and give it to colleges?
- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . .
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wrote:

That begs the question, "Go to college? Why bother?" followed by the realization in these times that it is far 'easier' to make money by applying 'relative ethics' to what is supplied. Or better yet, come up with a great iPod App and retire.
Let's see...McDonald's employees got a raise above minimum wages, then went on strike for what? $15/hr? I've seen Ads for 'workers wanted' at UP TO $15/hr! But those positions REQUIRE high tech backgrounds and/or college degrees. Something seems badly distorted here.
Other questions: 1. Is it true that Japan now owns more of US debt than China? And, what is the significance of that? 2. Is US beef containing all those hormones still NOT allowed as imports into MANY countries in spite of many instances of US govt using trade agreements 'forcing' them to accept that meat, and now all grain products, anything with potential GMO in it, are included in that list and many countries will NOT allow grain imports? Yet, the FDA says both hormone meeats and GMO's are ok for U.S. citizens to eat. Any significance there?
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If true, Japan got over its world domination thing years ago and are less likely to screw with us at some important juncture.

Yeah, it shows how politicians (who call for deference to the science in things like global warming) don't necessarily follow their own dictates when the know-nothings are in full bellow and choosing what science they want to believe.
The Journal of Animal Science recently looked at over 100 billion animals over a 29 year period from 1996 (100% non GMO) and after intro when GMO fed animals jumped to something like 90%. It included information from both pre- and post-mortem studies. (FWIW, the researchers were from UC-Davis not exactly a hot bed of pro-business thought. They found no unusual trends, consistent with a long line of other animal feeding studies that were actually peer-reviewed. A rather lengthy list of animal studies is available here. ?http://www.fass.org/page.asp?pageIDR&autotry=true
And before we break out the EU and its statements, those are mostly political and even the EU itself notes: "The main conclusion to be drawn from the efforts of more than 130 research projects, covering a period of more than 25 years of research, and involving more than 500 independent research groups, is that that biotechnology, and in particular, GMOs, are no more risky than e.g. conventional plant breeding technologies." Directorate-General for Research and Innovation Biotechnologies, Agriculture, Food. ?http://ec.europa.eu/.../a_decade_of_eu-funded_gmo ... Add to that the WHO: "GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved." ?http://www.who.int/.../faq-geneically-modified-food/en/ The NAtional Academy of Sciences in the US and Royal Society of Medicine has chimed the same way.
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wrote:

Great facts! Hopefully such extensive testing will catch any problem. However, one MUST keep in mind that there is NO instrumentation capable of matching olfactory capabilities, etc etc
I only became alerted to the presence of GMO's [not through our medai at all] after Ms. Macy started complaining about the taste of what she called, Chinese gluten, in some breads, flour, and biscuits. Her noticing 'contamination' started a while ago and has spread to more and more products. She can tell blind tests of non-GMO and GMO products. She found the taste so repugnant as to spit out the food, AND require me to return the Product to the market for credit.
I'm looking for a civilized manner to describe her taste sensation when she first started hitting upon 'something' starting to appear in our products. The closest I can get to describing what she tastes is imagine you're starting to eat a delicious chocolate bikkie, or piece of bread, and suddenly the taste changes to include another taste, as though someone has had a very bad bowel movement and just opened the bathroom door WITHOUT running the fan, or spraying. Her description is a bit more succinct, but you get the sensation of flavour. VERY repulsive!
We have since switched to organic products and have not experienced the weird GMO flavour again.
Regarding meat, we eat organic/ranch meat only. We found we could not digest the readily available meats and for years went without eating any, until started experimenting with organic/range meats. We found the meat readily digests and does not cause any 'after effects' like we used to experience.
It's just I hope the FDA does NOT remove requirement to appropriately 'label' products. I understand there is a lot of pressure to remove such labeling requirements.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fido_Explosives_Detector
The Fido explosives detector is created by ICx Technologies, Inc. and is based on a proprietary technology developed by MIT called amplifying fluorescent polymer (AFP). The AFP technology was invented by 2007 Lemelson-MIT Prize winner Professor Timothy Swager[1] and adapted for use in the Fido explosives detector to detect trace levels of explosive materials. The product is so named because its level of detection is comparable to highly trained explosives detection dogs, the gold standard in explosives detection technology.

I wasn't aware GMO foods are labeled. Where do you find such food?
I knew a guy who's wife would not allow a car she was in to be driven over a bridge.
I've heard of another wife that refuses to drive to gas stations.
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I stand 'corrected', but we don't eat the explosives anyway. Well sometimes I think they're in the mushrooms I try to microwave.
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On 4/27/2015 7:47 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

College is a necessity today. You can go study for years and have a degree in 4th century Greek sculpture so you can get a job flipping burgers. Those student loans will be paid for by the time you retire.
Or go to trade school and get a job as an auto tech and make $75,000 a year.
My unscientific observation is more kids are going to college than ever before. While that is generally a good thing, they are too often taking courses to a dead end. Just because you want to study Greek sculpture does not mean you are going to find a good job. Engineering takes a bit more work, but you can make a good living.
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On 04/27/2015 08:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yep
If I were starting all over I'd just go to the local trade school and get a relatively inexpensive two year degree.
Even though I was a college graduate when I got my job...all I really needed was basic electronics. Most of what I learned was learned on the job.
There is still of course a great need for college education.
For example: I would not want to go to a doctor who only had 2 years of school.
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Sadly, that's the direction we're heading. Many doctors with good education credentials are being replaced by nurse practitioners and physician's assistants who just don't have the education required to replace doctors.
These NP/PAs are typically "sold" as doing things that it's too expensive for doctors to do, but in my experience many clinics and doctor's groups use them as much cheaper direct replacements for licensed MDs. The NP that my doctors use didn't impress me at all. She told me things about the meds she was prescribing that were just flat out wrong. Her understanding of my medical issues was weak, to say the least, and I was about to file a complaint with the medical board when they switched me back to an actual MD who had at least 10 years' more experience and education.
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Depends on the setting there is a long line of studies (from at 2000 forward) showing no differences in outcomes between alternate providers (NPs and PAs) in ambulatory settings. The same has held true for nurse gas passers and midwives. The outcomes from hospitalist and critical care isn't as robust. And so your personal experiences (the classic n=1 study) is enough to make policy on?
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wrote in message news:mhlk1p$j52

education

doctors.

expensive

use

my

she

MD

(translation: if you cherry pick the data)

Which is to say "their professionalism is at issue mostly when the stakes are high." I'd agree.

Jeez. When did I say or write anything even closely resembling my desire to let my few personal experiences direct public policy?
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Not all , Oh Great purveyor of n=1 studies as gospel. Merely, as I went on to note, they work in some specialties than others. Not really all surprising.

Of course that isn't at all what I said. Professionalism has nothing to do with it. Some place require more intensive education than others. This is reflected in the relatively longer residencies for docs in surgery, etc. Although, now that you mention it, I probably should have elaborated that they aren't as robust largely because NPs are newer to the area and the long term research hasn't been done yet.

Get back with you in a minute on this. You snipped the part I was responding to and I can't call the old ones up with this window open.
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These NP/PAs are typically "sold" as doing things that it's too expensive for doctors to do, but in**** my experience ****many clinics and doctor's groups use them as much cheaper direct replacements for licensed MDs. *** The NP that my doctors use didn't impress me at all. She told me things about the meds she was prescribing that were just flat out wrong. Her understanding of my medical issues was weak, to say the least, and I was about to file a complaint with the medical board when they switched me back to an actual MD who had at least 10 years' more experience and education.****
Nothing here about any actual research you had done into the thing, but heck you are more than willing FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE to suggest that they are only being used for their cheapness.
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wrote:

OK - I am still waiting for the part where I want to "direct public policy." I am not sure how you translate my relating my (and my wife's) experience with nurse practitioners as my somehow wanting to "direct public policy." I think that's a stretch at least as long as Rosemary Woods made with the Nixon tapes. (-:
Or is there some issue with my being sad about it? I can't quite see "being sad" about the shift away from MDs to PA/NPs as a desire to "direct public policy." Is there any doubt that's the direction medical care in the US is trending? More PAs and NP's? And that both groups are working very hard to get greater autonomy and less oversight from doctors?
You'd probably be surprised to learn it's a trend I support in many ways but it needs to be implemented properly and from what my wife and I have seen and what we've read about it's often NOT implemented well and patients get sub-standard care. YMMV.
You're also a nurse, which could color your thinking about nurse practitioners a tad. I have no such dog is the hunt, only the experience that my last NP was fighting way above her weight and it showed. As soon as a doctor got on the case, the problem went away. I also had extensive discussion with my GP/MD about NPs and he had some serious reservations, too, about the delta in training and experience.
I've been told (but have not verified) that Medicare *requires* a licensed MD to be on site at one clinic I visit even though most patient interactions are with NP's who have narcotic prescribing authority in my state.
As for the studies showing NPs do just as well as MDs: "Physicians say this study is hardly the last word on the debate. An article published in the American Medical Association Journal of Ethics early this year said the jury is still out on whether nurse practitioners are as effective as doctors - and that previous studies on the topic, including the 2000 JAMA study, were lacking or incomplete."
http://www.texastribune.org/2010/05/21/nurse-practitioners-want-less-doctor-oversight/
As NPs strive for fewer restrictions and the ability to work independently, who's to say the outcomes won't change drastically (for the worse) when the doctor is not present to handle emergency cases? It's quite a contentious subject in the medical field as I am sure you know. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out since the need for GP's in the boonies is only increasing and the supply falling way short of demand.
Still, I think it's a little "hopeful" to think NPs can hope to replace MDs, even for general practice work. From the same article:
"even the most skilled advanced practice nurses receive just a fraction of the medical training family practice doctors get - a maximum of 5,300 hours, compared to doctors' 20,000 hours, according to an analysis by the American Academy of Family Physicians. And they don't go through grueling residency programs like doctors do, the physicians say, leaving them less prepared to handle emergencies or unusual conditions."
Fifteen THOUSAND extra training hours has to mean something, and from what I've seen, at least *some* NP's aren't up to the tasks they have been assigned to.
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I haven't been a nurse for over 10 years now and since I have a lowly AD degree in nursing it is no skin off my nose.

Not actually. Those are mostly state requirements and they vary widely from having a doc to oversee to not. Medicare pays NPs two ways. If they want to bill under the doc's MCaid number at 100% of what a doc would get, then the doc has to be on site (which makes sense). If they bill at the NP rate of 80% of the docs rates then they don't have to be onsite.

And yet you call MY merely having the initials coloring my thinking? Heck under that criteria, maybe you should be running in the other direction screaming. (grin).

Largely contentious on both sides beause of the money involved. Also, it is contentious (and deservedly so as I pointed out) in some of the more specialized areas such as ERs, ICUs, etc. We'll see how the research works out. In those areas I think there will be a hierarchy established of what patients/duties the NP can safely undertake. Much to the chagrine of the NPs, docs call the field (PA and NPs) physician extenders. I think that will be more of an apt description in hospital than in the community.

Which constitute a breathtakingly small percentage of the patient population (especially in FP situations). As for grueling residencies, there has been no differences in outcomes between newly minted docs (who did their residency under an 80 hour week restriction) and docs with 10 years or more experience who did their residencies under the old essentially unlimited hours experience. (Although to my mind, the most interesting part was the seeming lack of difference I would expect just because the older doc has 10 years of experience... but I digress.) You know if it was any other endeavor, residency would be classified as hazing.

Yeah and you haven't ever run into an incompetent doc anywhere.
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<stuff snipped>

Since when is research required to express an opinion based on my personal observations and interactions? That's what "in my experience" means.
Nurse Ullman, are you sure you're not all charged up because as a nurse, you naturally respond on a more personal level than non-nurses to criticism of your comrades, especially their competency?

"Only?" From what I actually wrote: "in my experience *MANY* clinics use them as much cheaper direct replacements for licensed MDs."
If I had meant to say that's the *only* reason they are used, that's what I would have written. We're talking about my experience in an urban setting which is very different from the rural world. I know that NP/PAs are filling a valuable need in rural areas where the free market model fails to provide adequate general practice medicine. GP MDs couldn't make enough money to set up rural practices and it was a serious problem, one that NP/PAs are *poised* to address.
Until recently the jobs that NPs and PAs are doing could ONLY be done by MDs. You'd have to really bend reality to deny the reason for the existence of NP/PAs is primarily an economic one. That makes "cheapness" just a part of the package and impossible to avoid when talking about NP and PAs.
Big clinics, especially urban and M/Care/Aid ones, are coming more and more to depend on NP/PAs for a majority of staffing, having only one on-call MD there to cover 100's of patients. At least based on what I've seen and read. Citations to be compiled later today when I am at my desk. (-:
Historically NP/PAs were VERY restricted in their duties. Many had no or very little prescribing authority. Many states require that they work under close supervision of a sponsor doctor, etc. Doctors, as you can imagine, are not very excited about a new class of cheaper workers taking the jobs that they once had legally exclusive rights to.
The problem is that NP/PA rates are cheaper for a reason. They typically have 1/4 of the training of an MD. In the case of my NP, far less. Worse, still she appeared to have no certification of substance in her field.
I actually did quite a lot of research about NPs when preparing my complaint. This was the first NP I've run into that wouldn't escalate my concerns to an MD and who was just flat out wrong about a number of pretty well-established medical facts. I am perfectly willing to believe this NO was an exception, because I've worked with plenty of other NPs without incident or concern.
I find a world of difference between a medical professional that admits they don't know something and have to look it up and those that *think* they know something, but what they know is wrong.
There are some fascinating cases on file that I came across while researching NP's in pain clinics. One of the real dark sides of NPs is their growing use to run pain pill mills. A nurse practitioner is hurt far less by a suspension of their license (or more often their narcotic prescribing authority) than an MD would be. I'll try to find some of those cases since you're so interested in how I got to my opinions about NP/PAs.
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Expressing an opinion, and drawing a conclusion are two different things. You could have described your experience(s) with an NP and nobody would complain. Applying those experiences to NP's a a whole, well that's drawing a conclusion on a surfeit of fact.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Really our local technical institute is very popular for kids out of high school. More than 90% gets hired in their trained field vs. university grads. Blue color jobs are in more demand and it'll be always. auto mechanics, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, etc. will have life time career or they can run their own business.
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On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 7:21:09 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I don't know about the WI constitution, but the founders did make the mistake of mentioning education in the NJ constitution. It says something along the lines of it's the state's responsibility to provide a thorough education. Back in the 80s folks in poor school districts like Camden sued, claiming that because their school districts didn't have the property taxes to fund schools as well as affluent districts, it was unconstitutional and causing their kids to be dumb as bricks. The NJ Supreme Court agreed and basically took over the schools. They appointed a special commission that reports to the court and implemented a system whereby the state has to give extra funding to those poorer school districts. The court is still running this lib scheme, three decades later. Those poor school districts now get *more* revenue per student than the schools here where I live, more revenue than the average school district and even more revenue per student than the most affluent towns in NJ. And the kids are still dumb as bricks. It's one of the best examples of an unconstitutional power grab by a lib court I've ever seen.
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