OT: Interesting Debt Comparisons

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Than I'm no longer a liberal, since I would like (sensible) ways to prohibit spending beyond means.
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Han
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Then the way you get there is simple. Just demand that the spending be significantly reduced with real cuts. Start with a recent year where spending, though still higher than it should be, was not out of control. Where we had a deficit of just $160bil. That would be 2007. Then look at spending now relative to then. It's gone up a whopping 40%. Tax revenue on the other hand is now slightly HIGHER than it was in 2007. If instead of addressing that FIRST and foremost, you fall for the liberal mantra of it's a tax problem or both need to be addressed, you will never fix the real problem. You'll instead get tax increases that are real and immediate in exchange for promises of cuts from inflated numbers 5 to 10 years in the future. That is exactly the game the liberals have been playing.
Just look at Obama's budget claims. He claims he's reducing the deficit by $4tril over ten years. Even that would leave it at horrific levels and add another $6tril to the existing $15tril total debt. Of that $4tril, $1tril is totally fake because he's counting $1tril in future cuts that already have been made pursuant to the debt ceiling increase from last summer. He's trying to count it twice. Then he claims $850tril in savings from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. One war is over, the other ending, so that is money that would never have been spent anyway. This is classic behavior from the left. Take a budget and add all kinds of crap to it, as much as you can. Then when the Republicans want to cut it by even 1%, scream bloody murder and fight to the death. If it winds up getting cut by anything. it's a cut from an inflated starting point, NOT a cut from present spending or even realistic future spending.
In Obama's budget you're left with cuts to future programs that will never occur and will be long forgotten in a couple of years. The net result is that despite all the drama and pretending you have few real cuts that amount to anything and a budget for next year that is higher than this years budget.
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You certainly are because you believe that tax increases are some sort of "solution".
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Well, than I'm in between <grin>. I do believe that if the country (but perhaps it is only Congress and the greedy people that feed congress-critters) decides that we need to spend money on xyz, then that money should come from somewhere. Ideally by cutting it out from somewhere that doesn't need the money anymore, but if that can't be done, for whatever reason, then it should come from taxes. All this deficit will need to be paid from future taxes (or painful cuts).
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Han
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No, you believe in that increased spending.

No, it'll be far worse. Remember stagflation? You're asking for it.
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I'm not asking for it, hadthat when we bought our first home. 12.5% mortgage, rates were going up. Clause in contract said that if the rate of the approved mortgage was higher than 12.5%, buyer would prepay the interest over the life of the mortgage that exceeded 12.5%. Buyer signed.
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Han
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The policies you favor *are* asking for it. You'll probably get it, too. The cake is already baked. When it dropped to 10.5% I thought we were in fat city. We're looking for a new home now, and it's 3.5% or maybe a little less less (doesn't matter much because we won't have the mortgage that long).

My first mortgage was 14.5% (down from 18% when we were house hunting). You, must have liked it, though, because you want it back.
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I'm glad for you that you are OK now. Currently my only mortgage is a HELOC at 2.24%, and if it goes up too much, I'll pay it off with some reserve funds. I didn't like the high interest rates any more than you did (I assume), although the interest on junk bonds was really good at the time. For the future, I think such high interest rates won't happen again, not with the current Fed philosophies. But that is voicing what I think, not what I know, which as you know is bumpkes.
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Han
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Isn't that what you'd expect inthe first month? Is that really an indication for the long term?
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Han
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What *I* would expect. I *know* what the Laffer Curve is. OTOH, it's clearly not what the government expected.

The reality is that the long term will be even worse.
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On Feb 22, 11:29pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Sure. And in the second month, the 24th month, too. People figure out how you're screwing them and then figure a way around it.

Here's what happened in CT:
Pop Goes The Surplus January 25, 2012 By Terry Cowgill To all who insist that raising taxes necessarily results in higher revenues, we have this.
Connecticuts surplus, announced with great fanfare only a few weeks ago, has disappeared practically overnight. $83 million has suddenly become a paltry $1.4 million and even that is likely to vanish and vault us into the red. This after the largest tax increase in state history that, we were assured, would balance the books and make us stronger. Things have gotten so bad that today Gov. Malloy used his rescissionary authority to cut $79 million more out of the budget just to keep us in the black.
Or Oregon:
A 6-cent gas tax increase taking effect Jan. 1 was supposed to be one of the driving forces in a nearly $1 billion transportation package enacted by the 2009 Legislature -- something then-Gov. Ted Kulongoski touted as a "landmark achievement."
Coupled with a major hike in Oregon's vehicle registration fees, historically among the lowest in the nation, it was supposed to produce an additional $300 million per calendar year. And that was supposed to fund a statewide roadbuilding program with the first phase of the Newberg-Dundee Bypass serving as its $257 million centerpiece.
But the recession led people to buy and register fewer costly new cars, do everything in their power to wring better mileage out of existing and replacement rigs and reduce their road miles whenever possible.
As a result, the state will probably net less than $170 million extra in 2011, not much more than half what it was hoping. And that could put projects in jeopardy.
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When (not if) inflation takes off, because of your boy's policies, interest rates will *have* to skyrocket. They're not going to loan money at 2% when inflation is 14%. Well, I'd like to get that deal, but it's not going to happen.
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I would have thought that would have happened (to some extent at least) by now, but it hasn't. With Europe in worse shape than I thought as well, inflation and the obviously linked interest rates are now likely to remain tameunder the current administration. Given the "performance" to date of any potential challengers to Obama, that isn't likely to change. A pity, because a real discussion of policies and strategies for the economy would be something to welcome. That is another way of saying that I am sorry that the GOP can't come up with someone credible as a challenger, at least so far.
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Han
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It hasn't happened because even with all the liquidity that money hasn't been put to use nearly as much as it would have been in the past. Everyone is so loaded up on debt that there is no eagerness to borrow more and spend more. Excepting Obama and the liberals of course. It's like the FED is pushing on a string. Now, there is finally some evidence that the economy is recovering, so watch out.
>With Europe in worse shape than I thought as

I agree, provided you mean until January 2013 when hopefully this administration will end.
>Given the "performance" to

Have you watched any of the debates? Looked at the candidates economic proposals? All the candidates have offered economic policies with a wide variety of ideas. Unfortunately none of those would be considered "credible" to you. But meanwhile continuing a path of reckless spending, running deficits of $1.3tril a year is apparently perfectly credible with you. On the other hand, those plans must be credible to a lot of Americans, because right now in national polls two of the Republican candidates are in a statistical dead heat with Obama.
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I've watched some and parts of others. Pitiful, considering that what they are now doing is pandering (there is no other word) to the extreme right. Once they will have to appeal to all the voters, they'll have to do a 180 on many subjects. And then ...
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Han
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The US economic recovery is about to be derailed by climbing gasoline costs. Once they get over 4 to 5 bucks per gallon we will be in a recession again.:(
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As a small business man, I can feel no "recovery". It's as bad as it was for the last year or two.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
The US economic recovery is about to be derailed by climbing gasoline costs. Once they get over 4 to 5 bucks per gallon we will be in a recession again.:(
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Birth control is one item. More than 50% of voters are women and more than 95% of even catholic women have used birth control. Having it covered by insurance is a good deal for women, insurance companies and the country. The "Obamacare" health insurance is going to save money, even taking the increases in Medicare costs into account. The economy is going to get better, despite increased gasoline costs. Even at $4/gal, it isn't more costly historically in inflation-adjusted dollars. I'm sorry some people haven't yet seen any pickup in the economy. It's there or it's right around the corner.

It's difficult for Obama or anyone to do what indeed should be done in Syria. You remember it took 10 years, many, many dead and injured Americans and many dollars to get even a semblance of a compliant country in Iraq. As one of the archest of archenemies of Israel, attacking the thus far "sort of legit" regime in Syria is a dubious act in my opinion, although arming the opposition in Syria and encouraging a coalition of opposition forces would be just wonderful to me. You do remember how we got bogged down in Iraq between all the different ethnic and religious factions. The same would hold for Syria. I know that for the moment Iraq seems sort of a success for American statebuilding, but it is still very fragile. With Iran, Russia and China all trying to get more influence (and oil, and weapons sales) in that neighborhood, it is a good thing to act in the background, as I am sure the US, Britain, France, and even Turkey are. The less I know about the details the better. But I am indeed afraid that the wrong guys will get an upper hand there, and I am even more afraid that the wrong people are getting the upper hand in Egypt. So I think you and I are sort of in agreement with regards to Syria, hypocritical as it may be not to get actively involved yet.
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Han
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fascinating study of all the cost containment attempts starting with Certificates of Need in the early 70s, through Diagnostic Related Groups in the 80s, followed by HMOs and all the various flavors of managed care in the 90s, the Medicare "Sustainable Growth Rate" formula in the late 90s, and now last week's CBO report that the Latest & Greatest Method, improved care coordination and diseasemanagementalong with value-based purchasing, doesn't work. When we note that this week was also the latest vote to override the cuts in doc's pay (as has been done every year since the Med Sustain Act was enacted in 1997-- thus the rather draconian 30% cut called for this year), there seems to be little reason to think Obama will be any more successful than Richard Nixon and successors.
The economy is

I don't think so quite yet. I note that we had 20 years or so of (relatively) uninterrupted economic expansion. I have long suggested that the stickiness of this downturn is related as much as returning to the mean as it is anything else.
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wrote:

I generally agree with both your points. The rise in mewdical costs is also related to people wanting the newest, greatestest, and bestestest treatment (I exagerate a bit), and those are generally the costliest. Doctors, insurance companies and patients will at some point need to do the "right thing" and (for instance) change lifestyle, use first the cheap waterpill, rather than eat 18 oz steaks and swallow statins and costly blood pressure meds. How to make people do that, I'm not sure. Doctors need to be rewarded for their efforts, but need to focus more on keeping people healthy (prevention) rather than on MRIs, dialysis and kidney transplants. Also difficult for doctors and loved ones.
A slower growth might be a good thing rather than boom and bust. It is easy for me to say that people need to adjust their talents to profit from changing opportunities. Nowadays a good plumber can earn a good living, but he needs to be aware not only of plumbing, but also rules and regulations, environment, some math etc, etc. And some people skills.
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Han
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